@ItsJustSchool , I’m sure that many students have a distributional requirement that they could do without. In DS’s case, he is not fond of the foreign language requirement. That’s as close to “having to get through” as it gets for him. But, the FL courses are well-taught, and he’s actually had some fun with it.
Your D might be accustomed to small seminar classes, someone else might have been the best hockey player at their HS (or state), and most will have been among the very few smartest kids at their HS. While it’s good to play to one’s strengths, it also builds muscle when one changes up the exercise.
I think most students–especially those in the humanities and social sciences–will have many, and probably mostly, small classes at Yale. Large classes will typically either be something they need to take in order to meet distributional requirements, or something that is big because it’s popular, and it’s popular because it’s excellent.
While respecting the fact that it is a seller’s market, as a buyer, my DD first needs to open the door, look around, and decide to apply (and then be accepted). She is a junior now, so that’s where she is. I want her to kick the tires and have real reasons to explore further, and those that closely align with her experiences will likely resonate the best. From there, she can change up the exercise. But, yes, I agree, ultimately she will want to grow from her college experience!
My D, the Literature major, is taking her quantitative (read “math”) class this semester. It is called Geometry in Nature. It is taught by a brilliant mathematician who is tops in his field (so much of a niche specialty that I still don’t understand her explanation of it). However, he teaches this class each spring that is for kids who are not science or math oriented. Actually, one of the requirements is that you DID NOT take calculus in high school. The class was capped at 18 so she had to fill out a survey to get into it. She says he is the best teacher ever and that he loves teaching math to non math oriented students and trying to explain concepts in a matter that they can comprehend. She absolutely loves the class and it gets great ratings.
Like IxnayBob said, each kid takes the distribution requirements in stride in their own way. My D loves languages and will take both German and Korean while there. She is gritting her teeth and getting in the quantitative and science requirements, but as I stated, there are enjoyable classes that fit the bill.
Thanks, @Tperry1982! I once took a class that used D’Arcy Thompson’s fine (but ancient- even then ) book, “On Growth and Form” as its central text to describe geometry in nature. It was also a small class (3x the size of your daughter’s) and taught by a veritable National Treasure. I wonder it your daughter uses that book as a source?
I was reading “Colleges That Change Lives” last evening, and I see that I am somewhat trying to disprove author Loren Pope and his claim that an intimate liberal arts education is not attainable at an Ivy League school, since the school personnel are being pulled in so many directions. Research and publishing takes precedence, he says, sacrificing the ability to cultivate the secure and intense intellectual environment that encourages students to take risks, thereby truly experiencing cathartic change. As part of this, he posits that a spectrum of weak-to-strong students is a better mix in a liberal art class than all strong students.
He goes on to suggest that Ivy League schools build solid skills (transference of knowledge) to excel, but do not produce flexible students who are able to robustly rebound from adversity; citing a 1994 survey of Harvard graduates at their 35-year anniversary. The survey found that fully 25% of Harvard Class of 1958 graduates were unemployed, looking for work, or on welfare. He suggested that it was a lack of true learning how to learn, and confidence in their innate abilities that resulted in this outcome. Many high-level executives lost their jobs in that recession, and he contends that the Ivy alums were not well-equipped to rapidly recover. He seems to feel that students need to take more ownership in their education: seeing instructors as peers, reasoning things out, discovering and covering concepts rather than having them presented.
Anyhow, I digress. I started this thread having never picked up that book. I have a sense that this confidence-building can be found at any school. But I also have the sense that it is not out there in the mainstream. I guess that is what I am looking for- the challenge in pace and intellect that is part of the selection process at a place like Yale in choosing a student body, combined with tuition that is intimate enough to allow students to risk failure, or worse- looking stupid, and thus learn for themselves and stretch and grow. The latter trait is rare.
You alums are making me feel that this does exist at Yale (and maybe beyond “Directed Studies”), though I think it is hard to pin down.
@ItsJustSchool - Yale definitely makes its students take a wide range of classes. Everyone takes 2 quantitative, 2 writing, 2 science and a year of language. Of course, the courses that are in your area are easy - my D will have no problem satisfying the writing requirement as a Literature major. As an intensive Lit major, her languages are a part of the requirements. It is the science and math that she will stress over. But, since Yale has over 2,000 courses, there are always courses that can be used by non majors to satisfy the requirement.
Yale does instill a love of learning. That’s why it does such a careful job of crafting each incoming class. They do not want students that will stay holed up in the library. They want students in the singing groups, the marching band, writing for the blog (theBoola) or the Yale Daily News, doing cutting edge research with esteemed professors or being the best Frisbee player on the east coast. There is a reason why they are considered the “happiest freshmen”.
I think it’s important to add that it’s up to the student to create the kind of education he or she wants at Yale. There’s a lot of choice, and many majors include a lot of options to meet the requirements. A student who didn’t pay careful attention to course choice at Yale could have a lot of mediocre, or even bad, classes. But a student who does pay attention can have a lot of really excellent classes, including plenty of small ones. (Everybody will have a few duds.)
I haven’t read through the whole thread, but if you are looking for smaller classes, depending on the kids’ interests, majors such as EPE and Global Affairs might be good options. There’s a selection process to get in these majors in the sophomore year, but then the students get the privilege of pre-registering for seminar based classes with a lower class size cap, and they generally require that most of the classes to fulfill the major requirements be seminar classes.
I am very curious about EPE. My DD is very good at math and loves science, but just a couple of years ago I would have bet on her going into IR or some sort of diplomacy- so Global Affairs would really have been a match for that. EPE may be something that really does interest her, as Economics and even Politics is becoming more quantitative these days. I am seeing that Econ is really seeing an upswing in interest these days. It may be very selective.
It’s not that selective going by numbers, but then the applicant pool is a self-selected group out of the Yale student pool, so you can say it’s selective in that sense. Here’s a recent YDN article about EPE and GA: http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/01/22/popularity-of-epe-grows/
I think you are right in that these days social sciences are becoming more quantitative. I believe the math, statistics and quant econ classes DC took before applying to EPE helped a great deal, at least as much as the more qualitative analysis and writing intensive classes.
I want to note one challenging factor at Yale: Having to apply to some majors and even some classes. Geo in Nature sounds lovely, but only 18 took it. At Stanford there are gateway courses but I was never turned away from what I wanted to learn as long as I hard any required pre- req.
@myyalieboy, the question then becomes how to keep class size (or size of major concentration) manageable, while still being equitable. One solution (see post #24) is to make the school itself small (i.e. Small LACs), and not include research/graduate programs. Another is to open up more sections (albeit with different instructors), or to use the Lecture/Tutorial model. State flagships largely use the former (or a mix of the two); Yale and many others with renowned faculty use the latter. Oxbridge, of course, uses strictly the latter, with large university lectures laying out the weekly agenda, and College tutorials invoking the detailed learning.
Claremont Colleges seem to achieve a critical mass to support a diversity of courses, while keeping each College small and having a separate graduate school that is not closely allied with any of the colleges. Yale seems to limit sizes by using a cascade of admissions. SLACs limit course offerings (at the limit is Saint John’s College, with no electives; just a common slate of classes for four years).
Did you find any ways at Stanford to be in small, discussion-table classes each year? Or are there inevitable theatre-cum-lecture-hall classes with 9 vertically-sliding blackboards and a lectern? MIT, for example, has “experiential learning” tracks that self-select, but tend not to attract loads of people (hidden gems). In California, one can “make your own” with public schools by attending a quality community college for lower-division; then transferring to UCLA or Berkeley to complete upper division courses.
I am interested in exploring how a major research university can provide BOTH the SLAC experience, and the world-class research opportunities. The diversity of classes, and especially the seeming lack of a top-end to courses (a perceived limitation of LACs), that a major research university provide are very attractive.
I see it with Berkeley/UCLA, MIT, and now with Yale (with Directed Studies and/or carefully selecting classes). More input on Yale, as well as understanding how to get that experience elsewhere, would be great. I just hope these inputs are, in fact, useful to my DD (I think they will be!).
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I want to note one challenging factor at Yale: Having to apply to some majors and even some classes. Geo in Nature sounds lovely, but only 18 took it. At Stanford there are gateway courses but I was never turned away from what I wanted to learn as long as I hard any required pre- req.
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Yes this course did have a cap of 18. That is good. This course is not required for any major and is just one of those fun classes students can take to meet their requirements.
There are plenty of large courses at Yale that do not turn away students. Some courses lend themselves to small discussion groups so they cap the number of students. I have never heard of a student at Yale not being able to take a required course. I have heard that from other schools.
My son signed up for a necessary math theory course. After a few days into the shopping period, all the other students dropped the course so it was just him and the professor. He ended up dropping the class as well and will take it later. It would have been quite a small class!
@diuron81365, out of curiosity, do you happen to know the class number? It might have been nice to have a private tutorial with the professor, but I can’t blame your son
) book, “On Growth and Form” as its central text to describe geometry in nature. It was also a small class (3x the size of your daughter’s) and taught by a veritable National Treasure. I wonder it your daughter uses that book as a source?