Bi-partisan Immigration Bill

epiphany · May 21, 2007, 9:19pm

Posts 36 and 38 are correct. The evidence of the shut-out entry-level workers is consistently tied to employment of illegals. Latino immigrants, legal & illegal, are by no means confining themselves to the fields. Restaurant work, hospitality industry, construction jobs, yadayada. Combine that with the effect of an educational accommodation to the dominant public school population: both African-Americans and low-income Anglos are getting left behind.

This is really not about either/or, either. It’s about the absence of a policy. It’s about State & federal government not having a constructive & coherent policy, period. Nor a constructive reaction to “things happening.” It’s ultimate passivity, combined with ultimate expediency.

If you’re going to (wink-wink) kind of not notice that millions of undocumented workers – largely illiterate or semi-literate in their own language – have arrived, and that they are not accompanied by a bilingual teacher for every 20 or so anticipated children, then at the very least you should have the leadership to deal effectively with the effects of that population shift on the native group.

Not unlike a Third World country, the U.S. gov’t has shown zero leadership.

Bay · May 21, 2007, 10:24pm

katliamom,

Anecdote from California - my ex-gardener (Caucasian man with American accent) came to my front door one day about 10 years ago and told me he was sorry to announce he was leaving the business. He claimed that the illegal immigrant workers had undercut his pricing so deeply that he could no longer compete. His new business was going to be installing decorative fountains.

collegialmom · May 21, 2007, 10:27pm

epiphay: That is why when the “leaders” say that they have a mandate of 70% of the people, they totally exclude the working class, including minorities within, who abhor what is happening with the takeover of jobs by the illegals. They just don’t seem to care.

“collegialmom, I believe you, though I have to say where I live (Denver) you NEVER see ‘Anglo’ teens doing lawns. They work in clothes boutiques, wait tables, file paperwork in law firms or work as summer-time nannies. (Meantime, the guys who do the lawns on our block are named Jose and Carlos.) It could be a regional thing - but from my viewpoint here in the west - if even half these people went away the local economy would simply collapse.”

OK where I work, there are no boutiques, very few lawyers (and no major law firms) and NO NANNIES! Teenaged mothers actually do NOT hire nannies, they find greatgrandma to watch baby while they try to finish high school. Then they try to live on various government programs while they try to train for low wage jobs.

The boys who graduate HS have very few job prospects, now with so many plants closing.

The waitress jobs are careers, held many times by women in their 40s-50s. Teenagers have a hard time getting even these jobs.

So what does that leave for Americans? The factory jobs (scarce). Landscaping (but who hires someone to cut a lawn except a few rich people.) And community college, if one can afford it and has actually finished HS (try a 50% HS drop-out rate here.)

And then seeing illegals here getting benefits and jobs really drives these citizens crazy. Maybe the fact that our congressman has been in office for several decades takes the edge off pleasing these constituents. Although I do mean to call his office and see if he is concerned.

Ever since NAFTA it’s been downhill around here. But somehow pleasing illegals seems so important now; maybe my city and state are just beyond hope.

collegialmom · May 21, 2007, 10:32pm

By the way, the legal immigrants that I work with are also appalled, they predict that the US will be like a third world country in 10-20 years.

barrons · May 21, 2007, 10:51pm

Just as Chinese imports have kept clothing and furniture amazingly affordable, illegals have kept certain areas of the economy viable–new housing, much food processing and restaurants, hotels, and the every popular landscapers (much of which is large scale commercial work–not just lawns). In most areas many of these jobs are not that attractive to most whites and AA’s. I have a hard time even getting a landscaper in Virginia because they can’t keep people and there are few illegals in the area. The economy is good and people don’t want to work that hard. 
I think we have to work with the status quo and then go from here. That makes the plan seem pretty reasonable to me. Fairness etc has nothing to do with it. It’s reality.

higherlead · May 21, 2007, 11:00pm

“Jobs at $15/hour and up are now going begging - right now, today, in the cherry orchards, and later when the rest of the stone fruit and apples come in.”

And the taxes, workman’s compensation, social security etc? How many of these employers are paying these? Ane if these jobs are out there then why do we have Pell Grant kids out there? What do you need to know to pick cherries?

Truth is mini these folks don’t want to be subsistence farmers. Can’t blame them for that. NAFTA wasn’t the prolem though Reagan did screw the pooch NAFTA was not a Carter mistake. He has enough real ones to answer for.

Bay · May 22, 2007, 12:15am

It sounds like a distribution of labor problem.

We have so many unemployed illegals in California that cities have “Day worker ordinances” that regulate when and where these men can solicit work on the streets. They cluster at regular street corners every day, hoping to be picked up for day jobs.

I’m certain we have more than enough to step in and pick mini’s stone fruits and landscape barron’s yard.

katliamom · May 22, 2007, 12:45am

collegialmom, regarding your post #43 - it does sound like you live in an area that is suffering economically. But is immigration really the cause? And, more to the point, is NOT passing immigration reform going to bring back jobs and economic future to your city? Sounds fairly simplistic and naive to me.

My problem with this whole debate is that it’s as old as America: every 30 or 40 years people get all bent out of shape about some group of immigrants, most of them desperate, poor and yes, often illiterate. A generation later, those same immigrants acculturate, become productive and legal citizens. Let’s not forget that as a society we face a demographic challenge: without immigration we will be in the same spot as Europe. Up to now we’ve dealt a bit more successfully with immigrants than Europe has. Let’s hope that continues. Now I’m not saying illegal immigration is not an issue. I’m saying blaming immigrants, legal or not, for problems created by Americans that victimize other Americans is both disingenuous and hypocritical given the fact that the very food you may be eating today was likely harvested by immigrant labor.

Atlmom · May 22, 2007, 8:00am

We all need to get mad as hell and not stand for it anymore. We can’t let this get through without a fuss. IT will cost this country trillions. I have a friend who works with medicaid and he says that hospitals are shutting down, states are going broke due to the influx of illegals who don’t report ANY income and use emergency rooms as their primary physicians because they can’t be turned away.

Why do they get to pick two years of the last 5 to pay taxes on and I had to pay for every year? Do I get to go back and not pay taxes for 3/5 of my last 5 years income? why do they get more benefits than I do? This makes no sense except ted kennedy and company want to totally destroy america before he dies.

collegialmom · May 22, 2007, 8:18am

“collegialmom, regarding your post #43 - it does sound like you live in an area that is suffering economically. But is immigration really the cause? And, more to the point, is NOT passing immigration reform going to bring back jobs and economic future to your city? Sounds fairly simplistic and naive to me.”

Yes they have driven down wages in the US, and made benefits a joke. Trust me, I am not “fairly simplistic and naive.”

Plus, guess what, the illegals are breaking the law! They are different from other groups who have entered. There are 15 million people BREAKING THE LAW!

They are analogous to non-violent offenders, so do you want those all out of prison? What an example they make for our young people: if you want something badly enough, then disregard the law, no way! And then make demands?

And does anyone know if this is only Mexicans who will get amnesty or all illegals? Does this include unarmed burglars in state pisons?

collegialmom · May 22, 2007, 8:56am

By the way, if you check any major newspaper today, the bill very well may not pass. One reason that the congresspersons cite is the driving down of industrial wages by the illegal visitors.

And you are right about ERs. They come there when they can’t even get Medicaid. Where is the the subsidy for hospitals for this free care for foreign nationals? Or will they just continue to close?

The business people are objecting to there being too much accountability for their reporting and paying Soc Sec, etc for the illegals and guest workers.

Everyone wants a free ride, except the middle class who are paying for the cheap workers.

Treetopleaf · May 22, 2007, 9:05am

I wish they would secure the border. This latest bill halves the previous fence allotment down to three hundred and some miles. In some workable fashion we need to know who comes in and when, for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone explain what this latest bill will do to H1B quotas? There is another area where business seems to be getting its way at middle America’s expense.

Hanna · May 22, 2007, 9:29am

“So what does that leave for Americans? … community college, if one can afford it and has actually finished HS (try a 50% HS drop-out rate here.)”

How is it the fault of immigration, legal or illegal, that American parents are letting their kids drop out of HS? The blame for that problem lies squarely on the shoulders of American families.

zoosermom · May 22, 2007, 9:32am

I’m a conservative and I’m incandescent with rage. I would have considered supporting McCain, but I’ve now joined the Anybody But McCain camp and plan to stay there. I live in NYC, which has the highest state/local tax burden in the nation and I don’t want to pay anymore entitlements for anyone. My community of 500,000 people has two medium-sized hospitals, one of which is in bankrupty. Just getting medical care here is a disaster and illegal immigrants are the tip that pushed a tottering system over the edge. I don’t, frankly, see any good reason why we need to do anything in terms of legalizing anyone. Illegal immigrants came here knowing what they were getting into. If it was better than where they came from, fine, but American taxpayers shouldn’t be bamboozled by political elites to pay trillions of dollars to support those illegals, and we shouldn’t be supporting Mexico in its campaign of ethnic cleansing. I would have been fine about a guest worker program for agriculture because it does seem that it’s needed, but illegals are pushing native born African Americans and Puerto Ricans out of entry level employment and that’s unconscionable.

Atlmom · May 22, 2007, 9:42am

States pay medicaid with the help from the feds. Feds are now not underwriting it as much. States can’t bail out every hospital who has to treat many illegals seeking free medical care. There just is x amount of money. What makes me irate is that this is taking funds away from legitimate taxpaying citizens who need health care benefits but who are disabled and can’t work or are elderly and unable. Their benefits are cut b/c of the rising cost of these people seeking free medical care in our emergency rooms. I can’t pay for everyone but I choose to pay for the poor citizens, poor children, disabled and the elderly americans. That is who I want to support with my tax dollars. I do not want to pay for the health care of the citizens of the world who come to america, get pregnant, go to the emergency rooms so they don’t have to pay for their care, enroll their kids immediately for public benefits.

THen, allow these people to get citizenshp by paying for 2/5 of the last 5 years in taxes??? they get to choose which years and guess what, they got paid in cash so there are no records as to how much they made…they get to make it all up???

I work for 3 months a year JUST TO PAY MY TAXES. They work and take home 100% of their income.

Do we get to pick our years to report income??? Do we get to make up the amount to report? H no.

another thing. If you are naive to think that 12 miillion is an accurate number of illegals who have invaded our nation, think again, the number is closer to 22 million. Just see the numbers if and when this bill passes. It will be staggering.

Get on the phones/email with your congressmen and reps today. Be outraged. speak now before it is too late.

katliamom · May 22, 2007, 11:05am

Illegal immigrants pay taxes.
Many economists are in disagreement whether in fact illegal immigration hurts or benefits society. Different studies show different results. This is not as clear cut as many posters here have suggested. Use google and you’ll find many conflicting opinions & studies.
No, current immigration bill is not just for Mexicans. It concerns any illegal immigrant here before January 1 2007.

You guys want to get mad? Get mad at outsourcing, get mad at shutting down American factories because it’s cheaper to make goods in China. Get mad at companies whose upper management earn millions a YEAR while gutting down wages and benefits for American workers.

Making illegal immigrants scape goats for every ill in this society is absurd.

barrons · May 22, 2007, 11:33am

If the US companies are not efficient as possible, they will lose market share to those in those other countries–see the the US auto industry. Now we could become insular and not allow imports but this will just result in high priced shoddy goods. The US has to believe it can compete and continue to use our advantages. The Japanese have been able to build top cars in the US and show a good profit while paying decent wages.

zoosermom · May 22, 2007, 11:39am

"You guys want to get mad? Get mad at outsourcing, get mad at shutting down American factories because it’s cheaper to make goods in China. Get mad at companies whose upper management earn millions a YEAR while gutting down wages and benefits for American workers. "

Different people in different areas of the country have different reasons for getting mad. One of us doesn’t get to decide for the others which reasons are acceptable and which are not. Your experience is surely vastly different from mine and I wouldn’t tell you what to get mad about and I wouldn’t call your positions absurd. I also didn’t read a single post that blamed illegal immigrants for every ill in society. Can you point me to those?

katliamom · May 22, 2007, 12:04pm

zoos - in these posts, illegal immigration is tied to everything from closing of factories and hospitals to underperforming high schools.

But I’m bowing out of this discussion from now on. I’d love to hear arguments on the immigration legislation at hand. But this discussion has evolved into something quite different. Bye.

epiphany · May 22, 2007, 12:32pm

“Making illegal immigrants scape goats for every ill in this society is absurd.”

Who said they were multi-responsible? Did I miss that post?

I actually hold both State & national governments more responsible than any other entity, including the immigrants. Would I be tempted, & possibly not be able to resist the temptation, to seek a relief from permanent poverty for my children? Very possibly. That does not mean that I do not hold nations & states accountable for willful inattention, for a lack of leadership, & for failing to remedy the situation better than previous or current suggestions, bills.

The dual prongs of incentives + enforcement (or disincentives) have not been thoughtfully conceived. For example, the entire reason they are seeking to come here is (obviously) the absymal poverty in much of an alarmingly still 3rd-World Mexico. The failure to make industrialization & technology accessible to the rural population is a massive practical & moral failure on the part of the Mexican gov’t, and I’m sure all posters are well aware of the long-standing corruption that plays into that. The source is the problem. Mexicans would be a lot less interested in risking life & limb to come here if there were alternatives in their own country.

But Mexico is not the only such country. And to adopt personal idealism/sympathy as the overriding factor will only, by logical extension, make the U.S. the least inhabitable place on the planet – given all the people that surely would prefer our (current) environment to theirs. (As opposed to nationalizing that idealism.) The “solution” is to transform Third World countries into First World countries, & for us to engineer an immigration, education, taxing & benefit policy designed to encourage exactly that. Such as, learning U.S. techology to bring home, learning modern agricultural techniques to bring home, bringing medical expertise home, Bringing “green” technology home. (Not to mention bringing U.S. companies there, of course.)

Furthermore, given the prominence of certain States such as CA in the gross domestic (and international!) product formula, it is foolish to overburden particular States – which is a byproduct of national apathy. A downward pressure on any particular high-profile state economy affects the entire national economy. For a State to accede to popular pressures supporting massive social services (continuing to fund such social services) is self-destructive. When a particular State stops the faucet, those seeking such services go elsewhere, unless they are elderly/immobile. This has been true historically. (Just as when social services or taxation policies or some other life-style feature are more attractive in another state, it encourages migration there. Oregon, Colorado, Nevada are some examples.)

I’ve heard it suggested that a radically different approach be adopted to “borders,” meaning – open borders, economically at least, with more universally free trade & cooperative economies between the US & Mexico, thus encouraging the industrialization, techology (& education necessray for that), within Mexico.

I certainly don’t have detailed, well-thought-out solutions to these complex international concerns, but limitless immigration & abandonment of the modernization of source countries, is NOT a permanent solution.

Bi-partisan Immigration Bill

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