<p>The fanciful idea that we can send all the illegals back (going back to the USA of 1950) is just that, so where do we go now? Having a process that fosters legal immigrant status over time is a reasonable approach. I’d leave language out of it for now. That tends to take care of itself over time as nearly all second generation kids speak English.</p>
<p>barrons,</p>
<p>For the sake of argument, why would it be a “fanciful” idea to require all illegal immigrants to return to their homelands?</p>
<p>I hear this said all the time. But if these people were willing to uproot thier families to come here, why is it unreasonable for them to uproot themselves to return?</p>
<p>At least they will be armed with the free education, workplace training and good health from free medical care they received in the US when they return. Perhaps they will be in a position to actually improve the standard of living in their own countries.</p>
<p>Again, 101 is way off-target, i.m.o.</p>
<p>Opposing the status quo, and opposing the currently proposed bill, does not equate with turning black the clock to the '50’s. This is a straw-man argument not appearing on this thread, & certainly nothing I have proposed.
I see nothing “fanciful” in what I have written & find that a patronizing description. In fact, specifically I have stood against “sending them all back” en masse, in a recent post on this thread. Sending criminals back is not fanciful. Wise countries do it all the time.</p>
<p>You are not fully informed about the status of language in this country, and the differences between early U.S. immigration and current immigration. It partly has to do with different dynamics that come into play when the proportionality of First Language relative to the “foreign” languages, declines. It secondarily has to do with the prominence of any particular secondary language in the environment. In previous eras, there was not such a prominent secondary language. English remained paramount; incoming languages were subordinate – none reaching a mainstreamed level within an entire state. </p>
<p>Thirdly, it has to do with a shift in political priorities & “popular” attitudes. An English-speaking person in a heavily immigrant neighborhood, would not previously have been “required” or even “preferred” to be bilingual in both English & Italian, for example, to obtain a government (including local gov’t) job. It would be assumed that Italian immigrants interfacing with such agencies would learn enough English to do so, and/or bring along an Eng-speaking associate (which they often did). As a practical matter, it was clearly helpful if the non-immigrants spoke an immigrant’s language, in any field. (It might in fact be difficult to do business or work in a predominately Italian neighborhood if you didn’t speak the language minimally at least.) But that is very different from official policies encouraging & preferring the incoming language to the host language, which discourages fluency in the primary language.</p>
<p>I seriously doubt there are a high percentage of criminals in the total illegal populaton. A couple of percent–sure and that’s a lot of criminals. I believe they are deported if they get caught in crime in the US–after they serve the sentence.
Now it so happens I have first hand experience with the language development of Hispanic immigrants to the US. My entire first generation extended family came to the US (legally) speaking only Spanish. Every single second generation person speaks English and about half have college degrees from US schools. We are now having lots of third generation kids and they are as assimilated as can be. Going to college is expected. Most can’t speak Spanish any better than your average midwestern Swede or German.</p>
<p>barrons,</p>
<p>Some stats for you regarding illegal alien crime in L.A.</p>
<p>Hardly a small problem. (From National review online <a href=“http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy/dunphy200601300847.asp[/url]”>http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy/dunphy200601300847.asp</a> )</p>
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<p>Also, the deported convictees just keep coming back.</p>
<p>So add all thos enumbers and double them. You maybe 50,000 illegals as serious criminals in LA. How many illegals are there in and around LA. A million or so? Probably. That’s 5% and probably the highest percentage in the country as LA has always had large gang problems due to being the center for the drug business in the US. Arrest them, jail them for the full sentence and then deport them. I’d bet California is not a state that holds prisoners very long and is “soft” on crime.</p>
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<p>I like your style!</p>
<p>But who will pay for it? And how do we stop them from coming back again and again?</p>
<p>Who will pay? The fine citizens of California who can get their car detailed, their yard maintained, their kids looked after, their house painted and their great fresh foods at prices far below what they would be if they had to pay legal US citizens to do the work. If they could find anyone willing.</p>
<p>Sounds great barrons. Let’s see if Canada will allow us to export all our criminals and gangbangers so they can pay the social costs and the costs of incarceration. In fact while we are at it lets export all our senior citizens too so they can enjoy those great Canadian benefits. Oh wait they world’s longest undefended boreder has just sprung a fence because the Canadians aren’t idiots.</p>
<p>The grass got cut, the cherries got picked, and MacDonalds had plenty of employess before we were flooded with illegal immigrants who cost way more than they contriute. Stop the flow and all that stuff will still get done. It is just that the taxpayer won’t be contributing to some employers bottom line.</p>
<p>“Don’t forget worker’s compensation. In Louisiana, it’s extremely high for the construction industry. Something like 35% of gross pay. All that stays in the company if they have undocumented workers up on the roof.”</p>
<p>conyat - I go to NOLA once or twice a year and usually stay in the same hotel. Since last year the housekeeping staff has gone from being all lack to mostly hispanic. Who do you think is earing the runt of illegal immigration and why do you think a lot of the NOLA pre-katrina population will never return? The feds have OFFICIALLY given a waiver to employers to hire illegals in NOLA. Why would anybody who isn’t an idiot hire an American if they could find a Mexican to do the job?</p>
<p>Mexico has just sent 24,000 troops to the order provinces to try to regain control from the Narco Cartels. They are going to fail ecause the cartels have more money and more guns.</p>
<p>I do not see any relevance by Hanna in post #90.</p>
<p>She asserted her grandfather - although made an illegal entry - was a hard worker and contributed to American society, therefore everybody deserves a chance. There is a hint of arrogance there. “Should my dad’s US passport be revoked because of my grandfather’s fraud on the nation? Where should he go?” Just because you can find good people in any group doesn’t mean its OK to make USA an open tent forever.</p>
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<p>The cost of housing is up–that’s the biggest barrier to people coming home–but that has nothing to do with immigration, and everything to do with insurance costs and supply and demand economics. </p>
<p>I haven’t heard of anyone staying away because of the Hispanic population. If anything, Hispanic people have made it possible for more to come back than would have by now. Do you have any idea how long it would have taken the N.O. housing industry to rebuild 50 homes, much less 50,000, without people coming from elsewhere to work? Do you realise that for the first year or so after the storm, some contractors–especially roofers–had waiting lists of six months or more just to give an estimate?</p>
<p>The typical saw that immigrants cause low wages simply doesn’t apply in this case. At one point the Quiznos was offering $25 an hour for people to make sandwiches and couldn’t find takers because we were all too busy putting our lives back together. A friend of my D’s took a year off before going to college to work as a debris monitor for the feds. Right out of high school, she was making $18 an hour, with all the overtime she could stand. (Prior to the storm, the area median income was 35,000 or about $16/hr.) Wages are up. McDonald’s pays now about $3 an hour more than it did before the storm. And jobs are still going unfilled. </p>
<p>The crime rate? Any Yat could tell you that the violent crimes, especially the murders, are still being commited by native New Orleanians, almost exclusively.</p>
<p>Sorry, you’ll have to look elsewhere to support your beliefs about immigration.</p>
<p>Conyat, please answer this question: is America an open tent ?</p>
<p>The examples you cited above all come from one very special situation - the rebuilding of NOLA. $25 /hr sandwich workers are not the norm elsewhere. You used examples of a badly storm ravaged area when government agencies are hard pressed to deliver aid and provide normalcy to justify that, since have no takers for $25/hr sandwich makers, so why not let in all the illegal immigration who wanted to come ahead of legal applicants makes no sense.</p>
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<p>I never said they didn’t…that was my point in telling hl she needed to look to another city to make her points and let go of her resentment toward the Hispanic New Orleanians.</p>
<p>However, some things, like the ease with which undocumented workers can be exploited by unscrupulous employers, do generalize. I’m opposed to illegal immigration for that reason.</p>
<p>conyat - what are the job prospects of the average newly minted NOLA pulic HS graduate? Go ahead and kid yourself into thinking a roofing contractor is going to hire Deon when he can hire a whole crew of Juan’s and not pay taxes, workman’s comp, sick leave, vacation or anything else. Whose crappy school is no going to have to divert resources it doesn’t have to teach English as a foreign language to a bunch of illegal aliens?</p>
<p>I don’t blame anyone for jumping the border and bye and large I think they are fine people ut we have all the low skill labor we need already and the public schools in La are pumping out more every year. If you run short Mississippi and Arkansas and Baltimore and Detroit can supply you more.</p>
<p>You obviously have no real idea of the situation in New Orleans and you keep trying to twist and distort it into your preconceived notions of what it “must” be like.</p>
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<p>This is a totally uninformed statement. Right now every contractor I know is turning away work because he can’t hire enough people to get the job done. Good friends of mine had to have the whole interior of their house torn out and rebuilt. The job stalled 3-4 times, sometimes for as long as three months while the contractor scrounged around for drywallers, painters, etc. </p>
<p>Business people in New Orleans simply don’t leave opportunities like that sitting on the shelf. We’ve been through too many boom/bust cycles. You take on all the work you can when it’s there, because when it goes, it’s gone for a long time. If they had the workers, they’d be taking the jobs.</p>
<p>Do you have any idea how many housing units still need work? </p>
<p>I realise you probably never leave the Sliver by the River where everything is back together, but they’ve only just started tearing many things down in New Orleans East, for one. There will be years of work putting it all back together, for everyone who wants it and can do it.</p>
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<p>Very good, actually. I literally do not know anyone who wants to work and is medically able to work and does not have a job. </p>
<p>Refineries due to Homeland Security rules can only hire US citizens. By your logic, any unskilled positions there should have a glut of workers, since you think illegals are snapping up all the other jobs. </p>
<p>Last time I checked, at one refinery, Fire Watch and Hole Watch (entry level positions that don’t require any particular skills other than not falling asleep and making sure people follow a few simple rules) were getting $25 dollars a day per diem (“show up” money), $11 an hour for 40 hours and 16.50 for a minimum of 10 to a maximum of 30 hours of overtime a week. And they still have a hard time filling the positions. </p>
<p>Before the storm, this job paid $7 an hour, and people counted themselves lucky to have 40 hours a week. The refinery a few miles down the road is paying even more. </p>
<p>So what about the service industry where it’s very easy to work under the table? The Hispanics must have taken over there, right? Wrong again. I park my car in a pay lot (owned by a hotel) that has 5 attendants (different shifts). Not one of them is Hispanic. I eat lunch out in the CBD 2-3 times a week and dinner in a restaurant at least twice a month. I stop at a gas station at least daily. I very seldom see anyone Hispanic working in those establishments. </p>
<p>Your points may be valid about other places. I wouldn’t know. I’m not foolish enough to think that staying in a hotel for a couple of days a year makes me an expert on the job market in a place. But you are dead wrong on New Orleans.</p>
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<p>Another statement that seems to be trying to shoe-horn New Orleans into pre-conceived resentments about immigrants. Right now the issue that’s causing the most problems in the school system isn’t ESL by a long shot. That isn’t even on the horizon. </p>
<p>The demographic that is causing the most difficulty for the schools is the number of teenagers in the schools who have no parents in the city. Parents can return due to the high cost of housing, but the kids are miserable away from the city, so parents send them here to live with an aunt or cousin who may only be 19 or 20. Some of the teens simply have no adults to live with at all, and do the best they can on their own. This has led to a number of violent incidents in the schools.</p>
<p>The biggest problem? The shortage of teachers. That would exist regardless of the skin color of the students in the classroom. I have not heard one report of a teacher declining to come to work in New Orleans because of the students’ race. There are plenty of reasons not to live or teach school here without having to invent something that petty.</p>
<p>“The grass got cut, the cherries got picked, and MacDonalds had plenty of employess before we were flooded with illegal immigrants who cost way more than they contriute. Stop the flow and all that stuff will still get done. It is just that the taxpayer won’t be contributing to some employers bottom line.”</p>
<p>Actually no it won’t. The national TV news had an onion farmer on last night. He can’t find even illegals to pick onions anymore at up to $20 an hour because the work is hard and unpleasant. Same for cherries in Washington. Most McD’s are now staffed with minorities because white kids don’t want to work at all unless it’s at AF or the Gap. The labor market has changed markedly.</p>
<p>The good news is the majority of the US supports the bill and it could well pass.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/25/us/25poll.html?ei=5065&en=4d00bc16e6ea5657&ex=1180756800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/25/us/25poll.html?ei=5065&en=4d00bc16e6ea5657&ex=1180756800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print</a></p>