<p>Coreur, of course it’s the losing coaches whom whine about BYU. But the antagonism towards BYU over the years also came from losing coaches who felt that BYU ran up the score a la Miami of the 1990s. BYU used to win a lot of games by 4 TDs or more against clearly inferior opponents. Hey, Coach Stoopes at Oklahoma isn’t the most popular guy in the Big 12 (neither was Barry Switzer), and Caroll’s shine at USC has worn thin with some of his PAC-10 collegues. It comes with the territory.</p>
<p>I’d also argue your point about BYU being the best college sports program in the Rocky Mountain west. How many football national championships has BYU won since Colorado’s trips to the championship game? Have you forgotten Utah’s BCS bowl game with QB Alex Smith a few years ago? And Utah has been to the the final of the NCAA tourment not so long ago. BYU has never been to a Final Four. Can BYU compete with U of Denver in either hockey or Lacrosse?</p>
<p>As already stated, ND gets less than $11 million from its NBC contract and its share of the BE BB TV revenues.</p>
<p>The B10 gets the most TV revenue out of any conference at the tune of $242 million/yr. (w/ the figure continuing to grow).</p>
<p>In a recent interview, ND’s AD pretty much stated that ND will remain independent - but qualified that statement w/ “as long as it is feasible economically for ND to do so” (paraphrasing here).</p>
<p>Furthemore, unlike the ND boosters (who have a thing for remaining independent), the ND faculty overwhelmingly have voted in favor of joining the B10 - since they would gain entrance to the CIC and likely see an increase into research funding (which, btw, totally eclipses any monies made from collegiate sports at the tune of over $6 billion annually for the B10/CIC schools).</p>
<p>But likely, the ship has sailed for ND to join the B10. </p>
<p>While ND does well financially compared to most schools in other conferences, it will continue to fall behind the schools in the B10 and SEC financially.</p>
<p>If the B10 does actually expand, it will probably force the Pac10’s hand to do so as well.</p>
<p>W/ regard to BYU and Utah, probably not the candidates the Pac10 covets.</p>
<p>Utah doesn’t have the pop. base to bring in the required additional TV revenue and neither school fits the research criteria that the Pac10 is seeking.</p>
<p>BYU has won one football national championship (1984). Which is exactly the same number that Colorado has won (1990) and one more than Utah has ever won.</p>
<p>Since the conference was founded a decade ago BYU’s men’s team have won 19 conference championships. The next highest school is Utah with 11. BYU doesn’t win every sport every year in the their conference, but in most sports they are the team to beat.</p>
<p>Academically, USNews ranks BYU #71 and Utah #126.</p>
<p>So neither BYU nor Utah may be what the Pac-10 is looking for, but if they wanted to choose the best combination of athletic and academic strength from their conference, BYU would be the clear pick over Utah.</p>
<p>And since not all the current Pac-10 schools even have ice hockey, I doubt the conference will be weighing it very heavily. Denver is welcome to dominate that.</p>
<p>coureur- if the PAC 10 added 2 teams who do you think they would want?</p>
<p>k&s- I think everyone would agree ND would be the additional team in the Big 10 if they would go but- if not ND who do you think they add for # 12?</p>
<p>LOL Coureur, ‘Denver is welcome to dominate [ice hockey] that.’</p>
<p>By the way, many of we UW Husky fans are still sore about that so-called BYU national championship in 1984. It wasn’t a New Year’s Day game in a traditional bowl and it wasn’t against a strong opponent. Huskies finished No. 2 after clobbering Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl that year. I dare say that the pollsters actions precipitated the initiative for the BCS years later. Now don’t ask me about the BYU annihilation of Washington the very next season in Provo. I don’t have a good comeback for that one. LOL.</p>
<p>You need to go back and study some geography. Ohio and Pennsylvania are contiguous states. Columbus, Ohio is closer to Penn State than to Minneapolis, Madison, Iowa City, or Evanston. Ann Arbor is closer to Penn State than to Minneapolis or Iowa City, and about the same distance to Madison as to Penn State. Ohio State-Penn State is a natural rivalry and has quickly blossomed into a full-blown one. Michigan-Penn State has also developed into a strong rivalry in part because Michigan has always recruited heavily in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania may seem far away from a Wisconsin perspective but from a Michigan or Ohio perspective Pennsylvania is a close neighbor, closer and more similar than Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota. And now that Penn State is firmly ensconced in the Big Ten, an expansion to its immediate neighbor to the east, New Jersey, is a logical next step. Rutgers would be the closest Big Ten school to Penn State. Columbus-Rutgers is a shorter distance than Columbus-Minneapolis or Columbus-Iowa City. Ann Arbor-Rutgers is a shorter distance than Ann Arbor-Minneapolis and about the same distance as Ann Arbor-Iowa City. Michigan has tens of thousands of alumni in the New York-NJ area, probably the second largest concentration after Michigan itself; ever notice the outsized coverage the NY Times gives to Michigan sports? Geographically, it makes sense to me. </p>
<p>As for academics, the Big Ten universities plus the University of Chicago work together on academic and institutional issues through something called the Committee on Institutional Cooperation. Think of it as the academic arm of the Big Ten (which at one time included the University of Chicago). These schools, which include many of the nation’s strongest research universities, are very proud of their academic standing, and it’s a common understanding among them that they won’t let academically weaker institutions into the club, i.e., into the Big Ten. Rutgers is a pretty strong public research university; its U.S. News ranking puts it somewhere in the bottom half of the Big Ten, but definitely right in there. There are some academically strong schools in the Big East, too, but it’s much more of a mixed bag. Just to be invited to join the Big Ten would be a feather in Rutgers’ cap. Pitt and Syracuse are roughly in that same ballpark. Notre Dame obviously is much higher, closer to the top of the Big Ten in some ways though it’s not as much a classic research university as the other Big Ten schools. Mizzou is well down the pecking order academically, which is why I think it’s an unlikely candidate.</p>
<p>the big rivalry is Ohio State v. UMichigan NOT Ohio State v. PSU. PSU joined the Big 10 as the 11th team when the Ohio State Michigan rivalry existed for many many years. PSU has no current rival as they pushed aside Pitt because Joe Pa wanted a 2 for 1 3 year series. Shame, because Pitt PSU was one of the greatest rivalries in college football. Pitt will not join the Big 10 either because of Big East basketball and Pitt’s lack of connection with Big 10 teams except PSU and maybe Ohio State. </p>
<p>For the record, Pitt is not in the same “ballpark” as Syracuse and Rutgers? really? Have you heard of UPMC and the School of Medicine…real research.</p>
<p>Missouri governor has suggested Mizzou make the jump to the Big 10 since they have been “screwed” by Big 12 in last 2 football season bowl game selections.</p>
<p>Can’t see it happening w/the big deal of KU/MU border war in both fb and bb plus the long history w/Neb in fb, etc.</p>
<p>I don’t know. I agree with LakeWashington that they shouldn’t have added the AZ schools, much less add any more. I suppose I view BYU+Utah as the best of a bad lot. They fit into the existing league structure in that they are paired rivals from the same state - just like the other ten schools. Something that cannot be said for Utah+Colorado or UNLV plus anyone. Plus, as has been said, Colorado isn’t about to leave its current league. Also, BYU and Utah both are competitive in a more or less full range of sports. What is Boise State strong in besides football?</p>
<p>So what else is there in the west? Fresno State? Long Beach State? New Mexico State? Montana? Seems unlikely. If it were up to me I wouldn’t expand.</p>
<p>AKitta- you misread bc’s post- he never said “For the record, Pitt is not in the same “ballpark” as Syracuse and Rutgers? really? Have you heard of UPMC and the School of Medicine…real research.” He said Pitt, RU and Syracuse are roughly in the same ballpark ranking wise. He also never said Michigan and Ohio St was not the biggest rivalry. He said Ohio St and Penn St are becoming-"Ohio State-Penn State is a natural rivalry and has quickly blossomed into a full-blown one. Michigan-Penn State has also developed into a strong rivalry in part because Michigan has always recruited heavily in Pennsylvania</p>
<p>I think the desire for a league football championship game is driving the expansion. NCAA rules require 12 teams in a league to have a championship game.</p>
<p>I have no idea if Colorado will leave the Big 12 but I would bet if the money they would earn from being in the PAC 10/12 is greater they would go. Arkansas will never leave the SEC for that reason- logistically and rivalry wise they belong in the Big 12.</p>
<p>I think you’re misquoting me. I said “Pitt and Syracuse are roughly in that same ballpark,” i.e., in the same ballpark as Rutgers in US News ranking. I stand by that statement. In the current US News ranking Pitt is #56, Syracuse #58, and Rutgers #66, which puts them all in roughly the same area as the bottom half of the Big Ten as ranked by U.S. News—Ohio State at #53, Purdue and Minnesota at #61, Indiana, Michigan State, and Iowa all at #71 along with a slew of other schools. Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but that was a reference only to their US News rankings. Obviously, the CIC/Big Ten would look at other things. Pitt’s research effort is impressive, somewhere around #14 among public universities in total research expenditures which would put them around the middle of the Big Ten and well ahead of Rutgers which would rank toward the bottom of the Big ten on that score (though ahead of Indiana). But I don’t think Pitt is a good fit for the Big Ten for other reasons, nor do they show any signs of interest in Big Ten membership, as best I can tell.</p>
<p>As for Michigan-Ohio State being THE big rivalry . . . well, duh! As a native Michigander and Michigan alum who first became addicted to Michigan football in 1969, Bo Schembechler’s first season as head coach when Michigan upset OSU 24-12; as someone who never missed a Michigan home game during my four years there; as someone who continues to faithfully follow the Wolverines through past triumphs and present travails, I surely know that. But Ohio State-Penn State has rapidly become one of the biggest games on both teams’ schedules, often with conference championship and/or bowl implications, the games are often close, and it’s been designated as one of two “protected rivalry” games for each school—conference games which are scheduled every year, while match-ups against other conference opponents rotate. So clearly they see it as a rivalry, even though it doesn’t have a long history. Besides, it’s these two schools and teams really don’t like each other—the hallmark of a true rivalry.</p>
<p>I take it back. With Utah beating Cal tonight in one bowl game and BYU crushing Oregon State last night in another bowl game, we should be talking about which Pac-10 teams are worthy to join the Mountain West conference instead of the other way around.</p>
<p>In professional FB (NFL), Western PA’s biggest rivals are w/ Cleveland and Cincy (yeah, the rivalry w/ the Ravens is now pretty big, but that’s moreso b/c they are the franchise that used to reside in Cleveland).</p>
<p>Furthemore, for HS football, PA and OH have a huge rivalry (much more so than OH and MI) w/ the annual “Big 33” game.</p>
<p>While the UM/dOSU will remain the top rivalry for those 2 schools due to their long history, over time, don’t be surprised if the dOSU/PSU rivalry becomes almost as big.</p>
<p>And keep in mind, ND’s new coach, Kelly (who grew in Boston - can’t get more NE than that) - his other 2 dream jobs (other than ND) was to be the head coach of dOSU or UM.</p>
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<p>@tom1944</p>
<p>The thing is, schools like Pitt, RU, SU and Mizzou, all have nearly fatal flaws as individual candidates.</p>
<p>The B10 is likely not going to divy up its rich TV contracts to a school which isn’t a traditional powerhouse in good standing that can also bring in a significant new TV market.</p>
<p>I’m thinking that a package deal is more likely (say, UT, A&M and Mizzou; UT, A&M and RU; etc.).</p>
<p>Missouri isn’t necessarily a “powerhouse” in many sports, but they are up there in several. Their football and basketball both have reached higher than in past years with the football going 8-4 this year and basketball reaching the Elite 8? last year… And they are up there in other sports too. No dominant or no worse than several of the Big 10 schools. And Mizzou would bring in the St. Louis market and the Kansas City market probably. No, they aren’t Chicago or New York markets, but still a market being left out that should be hit by the Big Ten already…</p>
<p>The Big East ought to raid the Big 10 and take Penn State “home.” It’s never been clear to me what Penn State has gained by being a member of the Big 10 conference. Nobody “picks” or chooses to go to Penn State because it’s a member of the Big 10 conference.</p>
<p>That’s all very well and true, but what exactly does the B10 have to gain by adding a MSU level school in FB? (Mizzou’s not even close to MSU in BB, not that it matters much since it’s FB which is the driving force behind these expansions.)</p>
<p>While I agree that Mizzou is probably the best option out of RU, Pitt and SU - Delaney is probably thinking much bigger than that (as stated earlier, Mizzou in a package deal is an attractive option).</p>
<p>@Gasdoc</p>
<p>Please - the TV revenues BE programs bring in for FB (much less BB) are a joke.</p>
<p>Not only did PSU’s coffers (well, that of the athletic dept.) get rich by joining the B10, PSU also gainedquite a bit academically (the amount of research $$ PSU has gotten has risen quite a bit since joining the conf.).</p>
<p>k&s- we may get an inkling if the Texas schools are an option- the Big 10 would have to change their bylaws in regard to being a current border state.</p>