Big/Unrealized Dreams Built on Higher Education

[MirandaKnight]

@Thorsmom66

But it is so unrealistic to expect the same standard of living as your parents when you are just starting out. What happened to working your way up and living modestly as you get established (like many of us did).

I think you’re right that some kids do expect to start life in the top bracket of wage earners but I also believe that this is not the majority. The majority are likely just looking for something similar to what their parents were able to have. According to some reports though, the majority of college grads are underemployed a year after graduating. This would not have been the landscape that their parents faced.

It was also a lot easier for people to achieve the American dream when parents were starting out as they could buy a house and start a family even if they had to stretch to do so. How many people in their 20’s are in a similar position today even with having earned a college degree and obtaining a relatively good paying job?

Some might say that kids can move away to other areas of the country where housing is cheaper but salaries are lower there and there may not be as many jobs available. Also, their parents didn’t seem to have to move to hit those same milestones. It’s a bitter pill for these kids to swallow that achieving the kind of success their parents had may actually be harder - and possibly a lot harder - for them than it was for their parents.

[Twoin18]

@MirandaKnight

It was also a lot easier for people to achieve the American dream when parents were starting out as they could buy a house and start a family even if they had to stretch to do so. How many people in their 20’s are in a similar position today even with having earned a college degree and obtaining a relatively good paying job?

Your implicit definition of the “American dream” is a (heterosexual) couple who meet in college (or earlier) and get married soon after, so they can “buy a house and start a family” in their 20s. The economics of being a couple with two jobs and shared expenses are vastly superior to those of single people.

So it’s not just that the cost of living has gone up, but also that far more young adults are single/living alone (or living with parents!) in their 20s, so those other aspects of the “American dream” are also postponed. If my older son had a partner with a similarly well paid job, it would not be at all hard to afford a starter house in the DC suburbs. But for many young adults, including my kids, that’s just not a priority compared to building a career in their 20s.

[MDparent22]

A lot of kids start off in engineering and switch really fast. It’s not for everybody - a lot of kids get weeded out quickly.

[MDparent22]

I’ve often said this - it was easier for me as an immigrant to have upward mobility - probably true of a lot in our generation. My parents didn’t have as much in education or salary. It’s easier to move up when you’re coming from less or almost nothing. When you’re coming from a family where both parents have graduate degrees and make good money, it’s a lot harder to move up, or even maintain the same standard of living. They need to adjust to starting at the bottom, which will feel like taking a step backwards- they just need to be prepared for that.

[ucbalumnus]

@Twoin18

Your implicit definition of the “American dream” is a (heterosexual) couple who meet in college (or earlier) and get married soon after, so they can “buy a house and start a family” in their 20s. The economics of being a couple with two jobs and shared expenses are vastly superior to those of single people.

However, a generation or few ago, that idea of affording a home for a family was doable on one (middle) income, rather than being a stretch on two (upper middle to high) incomes.

[Iglooo]

I wonder if the preoccupation with the upward mobility reflects broad subconscious anxiety in the society. Middle class is shrinking leaving people feel uneasy. Unless they join upper class, they may be forced down to lower class?

[ucbalumnus]

@Iglooo

wonder if the preoccupation with the upward mobility reflects broad subconscious anxiety in the society. Middle class is shrinking leaving people feel uneasy. Unless they join upper class, they may be forced down to lower class?

Could be. According to https://opportunityinsights.org/ , only half of kids born in 1985 eventually earn more than their parents, which is lower than in previous decades.

[MirandaKnight]

Yes I was using the American Dream as a stand in for a certain level of middle class lifestyle.

You son isn’t representative of many young people though. I expect quite a few college graduates that do have a college educated partner can not buy a house in the DC suburbs. So yes, you’re right that many focus on a career - and again that too is because it is often harder to get ahead now than in the past where one could focus on having a family and still have a great career trajectory - and the idea of the American Dream doesn’t appeal nearly as much as it once did but there are still many who want exactly what their parents had but can’t have it even with the same basic building blocks.

[Twoin18]

@Iglooo

I wonder if the preoccupation with the upward mobility reflects broad subconscious anxiety in the society

Mental health challenges in general do seem to be a more important part of young people’s identities.

[Data10]

@Izzy74

I agree. Unless you’re set on becoming a nurse or an engineer, I don’t think there’s much reason to sweat undergrad majors.

It’s more than just nursing and engineering. Undergraduate major is relevant for most grads. In surveys , employers on average rate field of major as being far more influential in hiring decisions than both college reputation and college GPA. Major can make it easier, difficult, or near impossible for new grad to enter certain desired career fields. While correlation is not the same as causation, there are huge differences in employment success type stats for different majors; including when controlling for other factors such as test scores, demographics, and name of college.

For example, the ACS survey lists the following rates of unemployment + underemployment rate by major. “Underemployment” is defined as having a job that typically does not require a college degree. Some majors have double or even triple the rate of unemployment/underemployment as others. Some majors also have double or even triple median salary throughout career.

Share Unemployed or Underemployed
Performing Arts – 71% (41% have grad degrees)
Art History – 70% (44% have grad degrees)
Liberal Arts – 65% (30% have grad degrees)
Fine Arts – 64% (23% have grad degrees)
Leisure & Hospitality – 62% (35% have grad degrees)
History – 61% (52% have grad degrees)
…
Finance – 32% (30% have grad degrees)
Mathematics – 31% (52% have grad degrees)
Accounting – 23% (33% have grad degrees)
Mech Eng. – 22% (40% have grad degrees)
Education – 21% (51% have grad degrees)
Computer Science – 21% (32% have grad degrees)
Computer Engineering – 15% (38% have grad degrees)
Nursing – 12% (29% have grad degrees)

Students at selective colleges are well aware of this pattern, which contributes to the rapid increase in majors that are associated with perceived better career/salary prospects and decline of interest in majors that are associated with perceived worse career/salary prospects. Example changes in major enrollment at Duke from 2012 to 2024 are below, as copied from another thread. This table limits to majors with 20+ students. Most traditional humanities fields were below this threshold. Some were near/at 0. For example, Duke has had 2 or fewer classics (languages) majors in 8 of the past 10 years.

Biggest Increases (with sample size of at least 20 students in 2024)

1. Computer Science – Up by 7x (60 → 423)
2. Statistical Science – Up by 3.3x
3. Env Science + Policy – Up by 2.3x
4. Mathematics – Up by 1.6x
5. Neuroscience – up by 1.5x

Biggest Decreases (with sample size of at least 20 students in 2012)

1. History – Down by 6.3x (99 → 16)
2. Asian Studies – Down 3.2x
3. Spanish – Down by 2.7x
4. English – Down by 2.7x
5. Philosophy – Down by 2.6x

[AustenNut]

@ucbalumnus

a generation or few ago, that idea of affording a home for a family was doable on one (middle) income, rather than being a stretch on two (upper middle to high) incomes.

The size of people’s houses are going up over time. People used to live with about 500sf/person whereas now it’s doubled to about 1000sf/person.

Wanting a house twice as big is going to cost more. Here’s another view of how houses are getting bigger.

I think that there’s a housing affordability crisis in our country, but there’s also an issue of overinflated expectations.

[ucbalumnus]

Note that some places had decreases in new house size over the century. Those are places where the land has gotten much more expensive. Of course, you need some land to put the house on.

There is also the phenomenon that many entry level houses are being bought by hedge funds and such, reducing the number available for entry level buyers and keeping them renters paying rent to the hedge funds and such.

[Twoin18]

@ucbalumnus

There is also the phenomenon that many entry level houses are being bought by hedge funds and such, reducing the number available for entry level buyers and keeping them renters paying rent to the hedge funds and such.

California’s laws make it preferable to build apartments for rent instead of condos for sale:

https://www.costar.com/article/617973908/construction-defect-liability-law-blamed-for-slowing-california-condo-development

[aunt_bea]

I am currently having an issue with quality of education from people that come from other countries. I think, however that it’s specific to each individual. I don’t think it’s general. Or(?), was my friend not educated at a level that would make her a valued employee?

I have a friend that announces to everyone that she’s an engineer.

(I’m married to an electrical engineer. I have a daughter who is a software and electrical engineer, and, I have a son who is a computer software engineer. So, I think I know what they do for a living. I know how gifted they are in math. Math seems to be innate to all three of them.)

I’m not a math person. I’ve always been focused on the humanities. I love history, English novels, psychology and social sciences. Math is not my strong suit but my hobby is sewing. (SEWING is a big clue here!!!)

My “engineer” friend decided she wanted to learn how to sew.
I told her that as an engineer, she knows how to put things together to make them work.

She had indicated that she had a strong background in math, so she could figure out yards, inches, angles, etc. or so I thought and that was my assumption.

She is absolutely horrible at math. I’m not a math person, yet I can figure out what half a yard is, in inches. I can convert to metric numbers when needed.

She has multiple degrees, but can’t figure out that 18 inches is a half of a yard. She can’t do fractions. I tried to show her how to read a sewing pattern and she couldn’t add yardage. She thought that sewing a 1/4” edge was different in sewing than in written math problems. (1/4 inch was supposedly bigger than 5/8 of an inch- etc.) I had to explain that 1/4 inch, on a piece of fabric, is exactly the same as 1/4 inch on a ruler.

Maybe because it was practical math?

She spends more time applying for and winning awards for being a “county female engineer” of the year-that kind of thing.

Yet, she can’t read a simple cutting mat! I have a mat that is 24” x 36”. You have to cut fabric and align it with the measurements that you need; she gets very frustrated.
I found out later that her undergraduate degree was in her home country and was a private school.

When I was involved in hiring, I asked a lot of unconventional questions of future colleagues with scenarios and asked for solutions. I didn’t trust foreign degrees. Still don’t because I don’t know which are bought and paid for.

My husband and my daughter conduct interviews in the same manner as me, but they present written problem sets that are common in their jobs. The problems aren’t difficult if you have a degree and the experience in engineering and/or software problem sets.

If people are going to schools, in their underdeveloped countries, but the quality, of information being presented, isn’t at the same level or uniform within their country, then it’s a lot of wasted time and money. I can understand why those young people are frustrated and disappointed.

[blossom]

I disagree with the statement that in previous generations college grads weren’t underemployed a year after graduation. I graduated from college into a recession in the 1970’s and don’t know a single person from my college class that wasn’t underemployed a year later. Remember “survival” jobs? The cum laude graduate driving a taxi. The student with the award winning honors thesis working as a hostess at a restaurant while doing grad school applications and hoping the economy would get better before she had to pull the trigger on getting yet another degree.

Two handfuls went directly to grad or professional school. But B-schools didn’t want you until you had work experience and being a nanny and house-sitter for your former professor didn’t count.

People have short memories! One year post graduation is not enough time to evaluate the career trajectory of a cohort. Eventually the guy teaching surfing in Hawaii gets a job at an ad agency; the woman baking sourdough brioche gets a job processing mortgage applications and decides she loves finance…etc. But graduating into a soft hiring market for entry level professional jobs doesn’t mean that college was a waste.

[MirandaKnight]

@blossom

But graduating into a soft hiring market for entry level professional jobs doesn’t mean that college was a waste.

It wouldn’t be my memory as the 1970 job market would be before my time. However, there is a difference today compared with back then which is that there were less graduates so while there may not have been jobs for all of them initially, in time they seemed to find jobs as the market improved which based on your description sounded like college grad level work. That doesn’t appear to be the case now. According to this article, while more than half are underemployed initially, 4 in 10 remain underemployed a decade later. As for college being a waste - I never said that but I do think college hasn’t adjusted to prepare many students in the way that either students or the job market would benefit from ie. developing skills that are expected for people to have in today’s workforce.

How concerning is underemployment of graduates?

[ucbalumnus]

@aunt_bea

My husband and my daughter conduct interviews in the same manner as me, but they present written problem sets that are common in their jobs. The problems aren’t difficult if you have a degree and the experience in engineering and/or software problem sets.

If people are going to schools, in their underdeveloped countries, but the quality, of information being presented, isn’t at the same level or uniform within their country, then it’s a lot of wasted time and money. I can understand why those young people are frustrated and disappointed.

For those with engineering degrees, note that many other countries have accreditation analogous to ABET accreditation, and which is mutually recognized with ABET. See Is Your Program Recognized? - ABET . Checking international engineering degrees with the appropriate accreditation lists may be worth doing if you have doubts about them.

But then the example you give is probably not the only one where someone may have learned something but not realized how to apply it to something else. For example, there is this paper https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/17/2/152/17985/A-Mathematical-Model-for-the-Determination-of , which generated reactions like publications - Rediscovery of calculus in 1994: what should have happened to that paper? - Academia Stack Exchange . Hard to believe that a researcher who probably learned calculus early in their education would not realize what calculating the area under a curve is and therefore has to go through the trouble of reinventing it.

[Data10]

The graphs go to 2010 and 2015. That’s missing some of the primary reasons why housing is unaffordable – post-COVID housing rapid increase in prices combined with 30-year mortgage rates tripling. The combination has led to record levels of unaffordability. Comparing to pre-COVID, an identical house might have 4x higher monthly mortgage payments today This makes housing unaffordable for the vast majority of new home owners, who do not have existing home equity to utilize.

Housing prices also vary wildly by regions. In some areas housing is far less affordable than national averages. For example, in my area, basic small condos start at ~$1M, and a basic small home starts at ~$2M. When combined with a typical ~7% jumbo loan rate, mortgage payments can easily reach 5-figures per month. I know some young persons who have given up on the idea of buying a home, thinking that their savings will never be able to catch up to the increasing prices. Some of this group chose to move back in with parents, in spite of being married adults.

[ucbalumnus]

@blossom

But graduating into a soft hiring market for entry level professional jobs doesn’t mean that college was a waste.

However, those with the misfortune of entering the job market during an economic downturn (college graduate or not) do tend to have worse career progression for many years afterward than similar others entering the job market when it is not an economic downturn. Unemployment or underemployment tends to be stigmatizing when one is seeking a job, even if the reason is beyond the applicant’s control.

[Twoin18]

@aunt_bea

I found out later that her undergraduate degree was in her home country and was a private school.

How many countries are there where private universities are comparably prestigious to the US? In most other countries public institutions are more competitive and therefore more prestigious.