<p>inverse, I agree with you. The key thing we don’t know yet is whether our economy can keep the pace it has and support the same high standard of living for our people if all we invent are products of the mind vs. physical products.</p>
<p>I dunno if hedge funds will feed us all the way semiconductors and http have.</p>
<p>ucsd/ucla–how many us programmers and systems people are male and how many are female? How many hours do they work and under what conditions? I see thousands of them everytime there is a major conference in Seattle and they pretty much fit the stereotypes. I have known many socially and ditto, and my brother is one of them. I am not talking about the sales and upper mgt people–just the tech people.</p>
<p>And let’s just say most profit making companies pay sales people by sales performance. I accept start-ups are exempt.</p>
<p>I agree with Alumother’s statements:
“The key thing we don’t know yet is whether our economy can keep the pace it has and support the same high standard of living for our people if all we invent are products of the mind vs. physical products. I dunno if hedge funds will feed us all the way semiconductors and http have.”</p>
<p>I don’t think it is desirable or good for our country that many of the brightest students are choosing financial careers over technical careers. It is driven by their perception of which career holds better future prospects for them (Assuming all things being equal regarding interest and ability.) I don’t know what can be done to make the technical careers more desirable to top students than they are right now.</p>
<p>They had no trouble back when stock options almost guaranteed millionaire status in 5 years or so. Sorry but $80k a year with all the pressures won’t hack it. Google has no such problems.</p>
<p>MotherofTwo, I heard that in Taiwan, high school math teachers traditionally get pay higher than engineers. This could be a starting point. We need highly competent and inspiring mathematics and science teacher at high school level. Give them much higher pay and attract much better qualified person to such position. Once students are inspired, we have a better chance to keep them in the technical field.</p>
<p>I have no problem with expanding Microsoft in China/India. But if one spends a lot of time and energy to get a graduate degree or to get a Phd degree and you won’t be able to find job easier in USA, there won’t be a lot of incentives to do so.</p>
<p>
Male vs Female CS personnel - It’s far more males than females in the technical positions - I’d guess between 80 to 90% male depending on the firm. This might be relevant to some but not everyone. I have two Ds for example who are CS majors now. Their classes reflect the above ratio but neither of them care. In the workplace there are generally many other positions in addition to the technical ones and many of those are filled by females so the workplace usually has a number of females in it. My point is that not all people put such an emphasis on working with primarily their own gender and that even if the engineers/developers are mostly male doesn’t mean the same ratio applies to the entire firm. </p>
<p>Hours worked - As in many positions this can vary a lot depending on position, the company, the particular project, etc. Many work the typical 40-50 hr/wk that many professionals do. There may be some times one will work more and times one will work less. It varies too much to conclude they’re all working in some kind of sweatshop.</p>
<p>Conditions - Generally very good conditions. These are typically high-tech companies or fortune 500 companies from all branches of industry. They’d typically get a ‘cube’ just like most other people at the office including the finance people, managers, marketers, etc. In some places it could be an office. It typically is ‘not’ a sweatshop style (or call center style) facility.</p>
<p>Stereotypes - I’ve seen some who fit the stereotype myself and find them amusing just as I did this car salesman I bought a car from who fit that stereotype. I can guarantee that if you saw either of my Ds you would not think they fit the stereotype. I don’t think I fit it either as don’t many of the people I know in this business. btw - I’ve never owned a pocket protector or band-aided my glasses together but I admit to wearing a slide rule on my belt during college for convenience.</p>
<p>Management - Quite a number were CS majors.</p>
<p>One thing that’s missed in many of these discussions is that a lot of people actually ‘like’ being an engineer or scientist. They enjoy doing that kind of work just as others enjoy being a doctor or others a lawyer. </p>
<p>Note - I notice you’re in Seattle so maybe what you’ve experienced is skewed by Microsoft. I’ve never worked for MS. There are a lot of other companies employing CS majors. MS is a large employer but most CS majors don’t work for MS.</p>
<p>Another reference - <a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm[/url]”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm</a></p>
<p>inverse,
true regarding your post 25. However, there is an additional reason that teachers, including math teachers, are paid so poorly. For example, I’m sure there are overseas-math-educated adults that would be happy to teach what they know works in math education – based on their prior training, and to teach that for a truly professional salary. The hurdle is the system in my state. (Maybe not in yours.) The State has teachers in a vice with regard to curriculum. You see, one of my theories for the lack of status teachers encounter is not even mainly because of loss of administrative control over incompetents (unions + other groups – the State itself). It’s because the curriculum has not the respect of the public. We’ve had long discussions about this on other threads. (Perhaps you joined those) There was a recent one that focused on the teaching of math especially (Asia vs. U.S., esp.).</p>
<p>I’m telling you that in the publics I visit, 11th graders are reviewing basic math facts, including their multiplication tables. So either they never learned what I learned in 3rd grade, or the school or the district sees fit to repeat material into late high school. I also know that at this same school there is in fact a calculus class; the problem is, I question the readiness of those students, given the lack of transitioning to calculus that seems to be there. Not many students seem to qualify for the class. </p>
<p>Just in general, much of the math curriculum in our publics is either dumbed down, and/or is poorly presented, with insufficient materials, etc. Generally teachers in our own publics are not free to design their own curriculum, although of course they may choose their own approach. </p>
<p>My hope is to <em>attract</em> “the best and brightest” (from wherever) with a dignified & challenging curriculum that breeds success & further advancement in the subject. That is as important as a respectable salary. Who wants to go home at the end of every day feeling frustrated with the boundaries you’ve been given?</p>
<p>Yes, colored by MS but it was Gates complaining and his company is one of the worst in many regards. Now that fewer US grads will work there he is trying to ease the way for imports so he can keep wages down. Same thing happened at my brothers firm in Nj where almost overnight they replaced much of the staff with Indians at much lower costs–and tried to keep a few of the oldtimers around to train them.</p>
<p>USC_UCLA Dad said: “One thing that’s missed in many of these discussions is that a lot of people actually ‘like’ being an engineer or scientist. They enjoy doing that kind of work just as others enjoy being a doctor or others a lawyer.” </p>
<p>That is what I was referring to when I wrote in my earlier post: “Assuming all things being equal regarding interest and ability.”</p>
<p>My son is “guilty” of being one of the very bright students who chose to work in the financial field rather than in the technical field. He entered college as a CS major but ended up majoring in Economics and minoring in CS. He did summer internships in both CS (IBM) and finance (investment bank) while in college. </p>
<p>In the case of my son, I can honestly say that he is truly interested in finance, investing, and related fields. Like many or most students, he was never exposed to these subjects in high school, but as soon as he started taking Economics in college, he realized that was where his interests were strongest. As far as ability, his grades were equally good in CS and Economics at a very challenging university, and he excelled in science, math, and CS in high school, but he was never “grabbed” by the science and CS as he was by Economics and related subjects. </p>
<p>So in his case, the decision was not totally or even mostly driven by a desire to earn an extremely high salary - in fact he tell us that it would not be worth working as a beginner in investment banking unless one has a true interest in the field, because the job is so stressful and the time commitment is so all-consuming.</p>
<p>EDIT: I am a scientist and I have absolutely no interest in finance (except the little bit that I have learned from talking to my son about what he has worked on, which makes it a little more interesting to me.) My husband is an engineer, and is very mechanically inclined and great at fixing almost anything. My son does not share the interests or traits of either of us in regard to the above, so maybe some people actually are more suited for the financial end of things.</p>
<p>MotherOfTwo:</p>
<p>That’s the weird thing - it seems that we’re all individuals. I have no idea at this point what my Ds will end up doing since a person with a CS degree could end up down many paths just like someone with an econ degree. The one D is interested in the Biotech area and the use of CS with BioChem and the study of the genome, DNA, etc. The other’s just starting the major.</p>
<p>I have one developer in my group now who used to be a CPA with a leading accounting firm but decided to do development because he really enjoyed it. We’ve already taken advantage of his combo financial/development background in some of the projects he’s worked on.</p>
<p>I am totally mystified why anyone thinks you need any math skills you wouldn’t have learned in grade school to be a programmer. There is only so much you can do with 0 and 1 folks. Civil engineering and the world of finance are different matters. If you want to make money on Wall Street then you better be good with math.</p>
<p>I don’t think education is really the key to America’s continued economic viability. The fact is it is relatively cheap for a country to crank out PhD when you have a billion+ people like China or India. On the other hand both those countries lack infrastructure, roads, ports, rail, electricity, clean water, and natural resources. We are in a much better position to compete in manufacturing “real” goods than we are in creating “intellectual” goods. Our knowledge workers simply cannot operate as cheaply or be as productive as a third worlder who can for a third of the salary an American makes hire a nanny, a cook, and a maid to handle all his/her daily needs.</p>
<p>
Not all CS people are ‘programmers’ in the low level sense I’ve often seen it referred on this board - there are some who design and architect systems, design algorithms, and need to use and understand higher level math in order to design the software system. Think about intensive graphics, physics modeling, etc. There’s an awful lot one can do with a 0 and 1. A lot of it’s going on right now in your computer as you read this message.</p>
<p>ha ha ucsdetc dad.</p>
<p>The reason math and CS are linked, as I understand it, is that the type of thinking can be similar for high level abstract math and computer architecture.</p>
<p>BTW, if you think China lacks infrastructure look again. What do you think all that record investment inflow is about?</p>
<p>“BTW, if you think China lacks infrastructure look again. What do you think all that record investment inflow is about?”</p>
<p>Yes it is going on but it is also a huge country. Leave the big cities and you quickly see how lacking in infrastructure it is.</p>
<p>Sure but whereever they are manufacturing, believe me, the infrastructure is there.</p>
<p>Yes but manufacturing outdoor grills and jet airliners require many ordrs of magnitude difference in infrastructure. Go se what AirBus had to do in France to assemble their new jumbo jet. It require raising and rebuiding dozens and dozens of bridges so they could move assemblies for one thing.</p>
<p>The other thing wrong in China is they are choking themselves on pollution. That is going to require trillions to fix.</p>
<p>To get back to some of the original comments about the dearth of American-born scientists and engineers: if the job market won?t support them, then I don?t blame anyone for staying away from these fields. </p>
<p>Bayer, Abbot, and Pfizer all announced major staff reductions (including closures of research sites) since the end of last year. After many many years in the pharmaceutical business, I?m looking for a brand new career far away from chemistry. I?m surrounded by bright, hard-working colleagues with PhD?s from high-powered institutions who can?t even get job interviews, much less job offers. Recently, I heard one pharma executive explain that all future growth in research would occur in ?low-cost? countries.</p>
<p>Mommas, don?t let your babies grow up to be chemists (unless of course they really love chemistry and don?t mind long searches for employment.)</p>
<p>My friend is a PhD chemist (but works in a different but related capacity at the present time) and her husband is also a brilliant PhD chemist working in corporate research. She tells me exactly the same thing that you just stated about the career prospects for new chemists.</p>
<p>What about biotech? There’s still $$$ in biotech out here…</p>