<p>The reason I started this thread is that I have watched the decline of the friend’s H. By the time I met her in 2007, he had already gone from vibrant and brilliant to “old.” He was somewhat enfebbled but could still get around and loved reading. After his last hospitalization this fall, he was confined to bed or wheelchair only. He could only carry on halting conversation and struggled to stay awake and follow the simplest conversation. It was very sad but she & he remained devoted to one another until the end. My BIL knew him as a vibrant, fascinating and well-respected surgeon.</p>
<p>Most people who have elderly loved ones seem to be dealing with this. It seems like 85+ has been a tipping point for lots of people in terms of continued decent physical and mental health. There are always outliers. Very sad to see very accomplished people in MIL’s memory unit(former doctors,professors,teachers,etc) so diminished. But this is going to be more a part of life as we go forward. Especially with all the medical advances that are keeping people alive.</p>
<p>Thanks for the suggestion of a Hoyer lift (several pages ago!). I’ll mention it to my MIL and see if that is an option in this case. </p>
<p>Mostly it is a matter of logistics. This is what I do now - is there another way to do this that might work better/easier.</p>
<p>bookreader, As difficult as it might be,if your FIL is at the point of needing a Hoyer lift and/or multiple people to lift/transfer him,drive to the home to help, it may be time to think of what is best for all. If the FIL has money, a paid caregiver may be necessary. We were at the point of needing 2 people with my mother at home in the last couple of months to transfer her. She was only about 100 pounds but she had become dead weight. She had had home health off and on for over 5 years and her home health nurses hinted more than once that maybe it was too much to try to maintain her in her home. It was exhausting but my unmarried sister had always lived with her and I felt I needed to support my sister’s desire to keep my mother at home. Lots of days and weeks at a time off and on away from my own husband and children over the last years to help out. Best of luck. This is so hard.</p>
<p>Sevmom. Thanks so much for writing.</p>
<p>The kids all agree that Mom needs more help than she currently has and we have all told her so many times. However, Mom doesn’t agree just yet.
We are trying to figure out where the line is between being supportive/helpful and pushing her to move on to the next stage/step (which in this case means getting more help from outside agencies). </p>
<p>Frankly, if she was not in good health, my FIL would be in a nursing home as he needs extensive care since he can do very little for himself. Of course she doesn’t want that but has not yet come to fully accept the fact that he is not getting better and probably will not get better. This is a hard realization and it has been a very difficult year. Last fall he was hospitalized and things have never been the same for him since then.</p>
<p>This discussion resonates with me quite a bit, as my parents & their siblings & spouses are/were in their mid/late 80’s. Even without any extraordinary situations, the aging process is not a fun one to watch up close. And whoever said to “keep moving” has it exactly right. The muscle deterioration in most elderly folks is an eye opener in itself. I am not much of an exercise fiend, but I have been making more of an effort recently & hope to increase that next year when we have an empty nest. </p>
<p>There was a well written article that is germane to this discussion in today’s Washington Post Outlook section by a doctor named Craig Bowron. I recommend checking it out if you have a chance.</p>
<p>This resonates with me as well. My 95 year old father seems to have started going downhill fairly quickly in the last 6 months. He lives on his own. Apparently he can continue this way as long as we move his things in the house so that he is living on 1 floor which we’re in the process of doing. He is at high risk for falling. He may also need a home health care person to come out a few times a week. We’re able to visit him every weekend as we don’t live terribly far away. My father is very hesitant to pay anybody to help him with anything including using a snowblower and shoveling the snow which he did last year. Fortunately this year we’ve hardly had any so it hasn’t been a problem. He has the assets to pay for this help. I think he is coming around to paying somebody to help him especially after I showed him the cost of moving into assisted living or a nursing home which in this state is outrageously expensive.</p>
<p>Surgery carries excess risk for the elderly, especially those who cannot perform the usual activities of daily living.</p>
<p>
[Avoiding</a> Surgery in the Elderly - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/25/avoiding-surgery-in-the-elderly/]Avoiding”>http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/25/avoiding-surgery-in-the-elderly/)</p>
<p>On the topic “Bittersweet Death”, there was a couple who lived in my parents’ Assisted Living. They were both over 100, married 80-ish years. She was well along in dementia. They came to the dining room for every meal, she in a wheelchair pushed by a caregiver. He would “help” the caregiver transfer his wife to the dining chair, sometimes holding the back of the chair, sometimes touching his wife’s elbow. He couldn’t have managed the transfer by himself, but he did what he could. At the end of the meal, he would again help transfer his wife back into her wheelchair. It was so touching.</p>
<p>She died last year, and within 36 hours he was gone too, for no medical reason. Maybe he had hung on so long in order to help and protect her, or maybe after loving her for 80 years, there simply was nothing left for him. Either way, he decided he was done and went to join her as quickly as possible. </p>
<p>In the aftermath of what was kind of a shocking event there, I heard the same comment over and over, “And yet, I can’t be sad.”</p>
<p>Ten years ago my father was quickly going down hill physically over the course of a year or so,but was mentally all there. He and my mom hosted a week long reunion with his four brothers and their wives in August. I took many photos of what we all knew would be the last get together of the five… Four of them had served in WWII. One had been too young. He and my mom had a quiet Thanksgiving together that year, just the two of them. The next morning, in preparation for a big family Thanksgiving dinner with all of us on Saturday, Mom, being of the generation of women who had one’s hair done every week come h@@@ or high water, left for her weekly appointment. Dad went outside to drain the lawn mower for the winter, sat down under a tree, and quietly died. Exactly as he would have wanted, peacefully, and out in nature. My mom’s only regret was not being there to hold his hand. </p>
<p>Seven years later my Mom’s kidneys were going. By then she was in her mid nineties and ready to go. She was mentally as sharp as a tack, but very weak. Talking to her on the phone you would have thought she was forty years old. She had drawn up directives years before, and had given copies to all of us, plus her doctor and her lawyer. Absolutely wanted nothing done. She dearly wanted to die at home, in her own bed. One morning, she thought she was dehydrated, and following her doctor’s suggestion, went to the ER, thinking it would be a quick trip, that maybe she’d spend the night until she felt a little stronger. Her kidneys were shutting down, and she just had time to call us all to tell us to come, before she started drifting in and out of consciousness.</p>
<p>Now, this is where it gets funny (if death can be funny). She also had time to call her LAWYER, who was also a good family friend. He arrived first, armed with her directives to be sure nobody did anything she didn’t want done. The rest of us were coming from out of state, and it took all of us awhile to get there. When my sister arrived Mom woke up enough to smile when my sister assured her that her hair and nails looked great. I did not make it home before she passed away, but I knew she died the way she wanted…</p>
<p>Well, almost the way she wanted. She had written her own obituary, which we found in a large Manila envelope on top of her desk, labelled “When I Die”. The only sentence we changed before submitting it to the paper was, “… died at home”, to simply “…died.” And we had to fill in the blank spot she had left for the date of death, and date and time of the visitation. She clearly did not think she was headed to the hospital to die that day, because she had made a list of things to bring to the ER, which included lipstick and the book she was reading at the time. We found the list on the dining room table.</p>
<p>I recently had a discussion with my physician who told me that cervical cancer is not something that is hereditary. It is almost always connected to HPV.</p>
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</p>
<p>But I doubt they knew that back in the early 1960s. </p>
<p>And knowing this now, I can feel almost certain my dad must have given it to her (he served in WWII in Asia for almost two years). I highly doubt she fooled around on him. Doesn’t matter, you can’t choose not to tell someone something with the hopes 40 years down the line they will find it does not have a hereditary link. My kids know all of my and H’s health issues (and each of our siblings, and their grandparents).</p>
<p>I am even more convinced now that my dad acquired it, and gave it to her. Just found some references to HPV and cardiovascular disesase, as well as lung cancer. My mom had a silent heart attack in her mid 50s (THAT, I did know about because I was still living at home), and my dad died of lung cancer, although they both had been smokers.</p>
<p>I’m sorry if I’m coming across as harsh to my parents right now, but I find it infuriating that they kept these secrets from us children. They never told us that who we thought was our paternal grandfather, was not (he died before I was born). This grandmother had my dad when she was 18, but the biological dad took off. This guy stepped in to make a ‘reputable family’ with my grandmother, but evidently every time he looked at my dad, he was reminded of the guy my grandmother had been with. But he never officially adopted my dad until my dad was 23 and about to go off to the war; had something to do with the benefits or something should my dad have been killed. Last year, we actually found my dad’s original adoption papers. Like I said, my kids know my worst secrets; they should never have to go back and wonder, after I’m gone, if there’s a medical issue stemming from something I did and never told them. The only reason we even considered looking for adoption papers is because my grandmother eventually told my oldest brother about my dad’s adoption, without my parent’s knowledge. So my parents never knew we found out. My mother was embarrassed of my grandmother, and when forced to take sides, I chose my mom. Evidently, I missed out on a relationship with a grandmother who was more nurturing and affectionate than my own mom was. My brothers benefitted from it, but not me.</p>
<p>Given a terminal prognosis and with all the suffering and monetary expense accompanied, ending one’s own life can indeed be a positive act.</p>
<p>You’re not coming across as harsh, teriwtt. It’s pretty clear from this thread that ambivalence toward the parents is something we’re all feeling to some degree or other, for past or present issues or both.</p>
<p>LasMa - I know no one here has accused me of being harsh; it’s just the perceived messages I’m making up in my head if I were to share any of this with particular members of my family who could find no wrong with my parents… I’m thinking of a brother and some cousins in particular that I will likely be seeing this June at a family reunion. And not that they will even bring this topic up; it’s just I feel like I always have to pretend that I miss my parents like they do, and I don’t. But my bet is these cousins have no idea of the information I’m uncovering. I just don’t know how I will be able to hold my tongue if I hear one more, “Oh, your parents were so good to you and your brothers… gave you everything you needed; we miss them so much.” </p>
<p>Gosh, how did I get this away from the original discussion point? I guess just showing how difficult it is for some families to even consider having the kinds of intimate conversations that are required to minimize unnecessary health care interventions at the end of life.</p>
<p>Some of these issues run pretty deep. Death, life, health and secrets are pretty big issues and can send our thoughts in many directions. Many of us had parents who grew up with secrets that were kept. I have a relative who died. His widow told me more about his medical issues than she has admitted to almost anyone else, including his brother (my dad). She was generous enough to share the information because I have a condition that none of us can understand very well and she had some pathology slides she was willing to share with my specialist, in the hope that it might shed some light (unfortunately, it didn’t). She asked that I honor her secret, as she wants her husband to be remembered as fondly as possible and I promised.</p>
<p>People keep secrets for many reasons. I hope you can find it in your heart to believe that in their own way, your folks did the best they could, even if it is not the path you would have chosen or wish that they had chosen, Teriwtt. All of us humans make mistakes and can think of many ways we COULD have handled things better–if only given another chance or we could reset the clock. Sorry, don’t mean to preach and know you have the right to your feelings. Just hope you can make peace for yourself.</p>
<p>This is one of the hardest issues we face and it hinges on so many tough, tough subjects, including in effect saying someone is worth saving or not, and who decides. Yes, a large chunk of health spending is on the last month of life, I have heard as much as 70%. When someone is revived it costs a lot of money, and all the specialized equipment and personnel is expensive, yet then it comes down to who decides? I told my wife a long time ago that if I ever went into a vegetative state, where I was gone, to not keep me alive, let me go, because that was no longer me, yet I have no way of knowing if in her grief she would let me go (on the other hand, if she was ****ed at me, well…I know , grim humor, but what the heck…). </p>
<p>One of the problems with modern medicine is it has extended the human lifespan, but it hasn’t necessarily extended the quality as well. If someone is kept alive by tons of expensive medications and surgery, if they are patched together with machines, cannot really function, is that really a good thing? For loved ones, of course, they don’t want to let go, but what is that to the person? Should a person be allowed to forgo that and want to die when they are still functioning? Hard, hard questions. Religion hasn’t necessarily done a good job with this, as seen in the Schiavo case, where they focus on a body being alive as the focus of being human, when the brain is dead, the person as such is no longer there by any scientific means, or when they fight any attempt at assisted suicide, even for people facing an end that is cruel (like ALS)… We need to wrestle with these issues as medicine improves and things like cost and quality of life become important.</p>
<p>By the way, the woman who broke her toe (mentioned in one of my prior posts) and summoned all her relatives while she was in the hospital to say her goodbyes, that really WAS all that was wrong. She wanted to go on her terms so after she said her goodbyes, she refused any food and just had saline until she died in her sleep. I believe she was either in her 90s or 100s, not sure.</p>
<p>Piggybacking on this conversation since my MIL has just passed: I know she had some kind of breast cancer twenty-five or thirty years ago (say, age 60-65) – but I don’t know anything more about it. She had it treated with a lumpectomy, and never had further recurrence as far as I know. But…I have a daughter. Is there more information I should try and find out from MIL’s gynecologist? If so, any idea how to go about it? (H is her executor if that helps.)</p>
<p>And as my one add-on to the initial conversation: I am trying to hold tight to the idea that as I become less able, I need to give-over some of the decisions to whoever is helping me, be it spouse or my daughter or someone else. I saw with my mother and with both my MIL and FIL that they made our lives unnecessarily stressed and difficult because they balked at arrangements that could have substantially lessened the burdens on the kids. My dad, on the other hand. was incredibly agreeable and easy to work with, and it made his final journey tremendously less stressful for all of us.</p>