Boston Globe article on college selection

momof2inca · January 31, 2005, 1:36am

Thanks for the link, Marite. This article is affirming to me considering the advice we’ve given our first-born (like most first-borns, he’s our test case!). Our son would be considered a top scorer, but he never wanted to take an SATI or II more than twice, and he has only applied to 6 colleges (and 2 are UCs that used the same application, one of which is just a financial safety… so really, just 5 apps). He has a rather eclectic course history both in high school and his college classes because he followed his interests at the time. His ECs were chosen based on his own interests, though one EC he might have dropped this year due to a time crunch and being a little bored with it, but he didn’t because we all thought it might look bad on the apps.

I think there’s a balance that needs to be struck: at one extreme is molding a child to fit what you guess a college might go gaga over; at the other is completely disregarding what colleges value in students. Probably the best bet is to be aware of what they value and do a little bit of adjusting or polishing so that the kid’s natural interests and abilities eventually are presented in a good light. An example of this might be choosing to do required community service (a lot of high schools now require a certain number of hours by graduation) in a field that aligns with their interests or talents rather than just at some random place. Another example, might be advising your child to choose a harder course over an easier one, even though it’s pretty certain it will result in a B rather than an A. Like so much in life, moderation is a good idea.

I know a senior who applied to 23 colleges. I can’t imagine the paperwork, money and time that went into them. And, as someone already noted, she can only go to one.

tlaktan · January 31, 2005, 1:51am

College admissions is out of control, but I’d like to comment on a few of the author’s bullets in the end.

Honestly, I don’t see a reason to take it more than twice. This, coming from the person who took it three times :). But I only took it thrice because the second was a fluke – testing conditions weren’t quite right, and I wanted to find out with the third test (the December one) whether or not the May score was a fluke.

As far as SAT prep courses, I think they are ridiculous – I mean, there are newspaper ads in my community with a guarantee of a 1500 on the SAT … I find myself fortunate that I haven’t fallen to similar desperation, but many have. They use preparatory academies here in Los Angeles – and college-crazed parents send their children to these academies, in the hopes that there will be a miraculous jump in the SAT score. There is improvement, seldom significant, but at what cost? Wow. They just had a bunch of formulas and analytical methods drilled into them. On a test that has little impact on the next 50+ years of your life. Right.

Okay, but four to six? I understand that some students do zero/superficial research into a school, but heck, I’ve been researching schools since sophomore year. (My friend gave me this book … the Insider’s Guide to College or something like that… published by Yale’s newspaper staff, I believe…) and ever since then…

Exactly. Which is why I’m not hoping for any miracles.

I’m already set to go to a college I’ve been admitted to, but what keeps me from hoping? I mean, I love Georgetown (just visited the campus, very beautiful!) but I know if SFS doesn’t accept me in the final round, it’s not going to be the end of my life. Options? chuckle I think it’s the worst case scenario that many students fear, oftentimes one that’s very possible.

Actually, most would. But me, being my stubborn self… I applied to most of my colleges using their version of the application, just because of the sole reason that I don’t believe the Common App shows who I am.

mumble Amen to that.

I’ve considered it, but right now I think an immediate jump will be most beneficial for me.

Heh. I’ve been enjoying senior year. :).

Students have a great deal of flexibility as to what classes they take in my HS. Well, somewhat. At least the students who want to achieve.

No, not really.

epiphany · January 31, 2005, 3:51am

Before D’s EA acceptance, she had a double-digit list. This was in response to the following:
–“hype” in books, magazines, & info propagated by the h.s. community in general (students & parents), regarding the unreachability of almost every challenging college which attracted her & fit her areas of study.
–difficulty finding safeties that she could get enthused about, despite a great deal of research on both of our parts, over a long period of time. (Hence, multiplying the # of matches to increase odds.)
–(said in a diff. way), size of gap – for her – between matches & safeties, combined with her essential need for maximum intellectual challenge & opportunity in her particular fields of interest.
–anxiety relating to being new to the whole process.

That said, after her EA acceptance, she applied to only 4 more colleges. This was mostly because she no longer needed a long list, but, as others have indicated, one is likely to run out of time after number 8, maximum. (Whether those apps are great or mediocre)

I’m sure there’s a percentage of students who apply for “trophy” recognition. But it seems that many others do so for some of the above reasons. Others do so because they’re indirectly prompted by peers. (i.e., see all the replies in the Chances Forum, stating “you won’t get in.”) Students, like my D, reacting to such pressures, are only trying to increase their odds of getting into ONE highly selective college, not a dozen.

And as to those applying for fin. aid, they’re probably not expecting to compare a dozen aid packages, but perhaps 3 (i.e., accepting colleges), & thus need to augment the pool of choices to derive a comparative sample.

It is my opinion, obviously not based on any “scientific” finding, but informal observation, that one of the major reasons for the multiplication of apps is the student (and/or parent) not coming to terms with the appropriateness of that college for that student. From the discussions I’ve had with some of D’s classmates, & her friends at other h.schools, at least 1/2 of the typical student’s college choices are inappropriate. Sometimes it can also work in the “down” direction, too, with students short-changing themselves as to capability, or being unaware of the limitations of a college or a campus relative to their abilities.

Too many students haven’t thought through some imp. aspects of a college that can readily be ascertained by a little research, & certainly by a visit, combined with self-reflection & careful guidance by adults.

(tlaktan, none of this is targeted toward you, esp. since I haven’t even read the other thread being referenced!) I am speaking from more direct recent knowledge about particular students & their choices.

I.m.o., the media is responsible for some of this misdirection. “America’s Hottest Colleges”??!! What’s THAT about?? It’s about, ‘Everybody’s applying here; why aren’t YOU?’ How irresponsible is that? (Correct answer = I’m not applying there because that college is completely inappropriate for me.) Some of these publications advocate a bandwagon mentality that does not serve the applicant who truly SHOULD be applying there.

momrath · January 31, 2005, 4:42am

I think prestige is an element that we are not going to eliminate so for purposes of discussion let’s just say that OUR kids are not concerned with prestige. The real problem is that in order to be competitive, they need to compete. I fully agree that two times for the SATI is enough. The colleges could easily mandate this; the College Board certainly isn’t going to! I also fully agree that all schools should switch from ED to EA (and I believe in Santa too). Neither of these points is under the kids’ control.

On the issue of number of schools to apply to: I think the “right” number is somewhere between 6 and 12. For kids that are applying to (and are in the ballpark for) the most selective schools, 6 or even 8 are too few. Now, if the colleges could insure that EVERYONE was restricted to 6 or 8, then I would say that 6 to 8 would be enough. But when Harvard received 22,000 applications the kid who has what it takes to get into Harvard really needs to apply to Yale and Princeton and CMU and JHU and U of M plus his/her safeties and matches as well. He can’t even count H/Y/P/S in his count.

My son’s school limited applications to 8. They counted all UC schools as one application, so they weren’t entirely consistent, but for everyone else (supposedly, I hear there were special exceptions granted) 8 was the limit. In my son’s case it wouldn’t have been enough. He had his 2 safeties, his 2 matches and in addition he was seriously interested in 6 highly selective schools. He did the research, visited all, was reasonable contender for all 6, could have been happy at all 6 but had no way of knowing which, if any, of the 6 would actually admit him. As it turned out he applied and was accepted ED so it wasn’t necessary to force the issue, but in principle, I can see why kids applying to elite/selective colleges would need 10-12 choices. Now, you may say that no one needs to go to a highly selective college. Maybe not, but if you want it you need to go after it in a strategically aggressive manner.

This is kind of an obscure analogy, but I’ll include it anyway as it’s stuck in my mind. It’s like what my pediatrician said about childhood vaccinations: parents who won’t have their kids vaccinated benefit from those who do. Or, kids who apply to 20 colleges benefit from others’ restraint.

reasonabledad · January 31, 2005, 8:44am

Bluebayou ~ Yes, I too remember those days (I went to USC after being accepted there and at UCLA). I sometimes think that the parents who have lived through one or more of thier kids’ senior-years where the kids applied and applied, and waited and waited, have internalized the angst, and that I simply have not done so yet (oldest is in 11th grade now).

Maybe by next year I’ll be resigned to the EA/RD strategy and to ten applications…but I can’t help thinking that if each senior applied to no more than 3-4 schools, many colleges would also have to react by admitting a larger fraction of the applicants, and this would be a more desirable situation. But this is not the world we live in!

andi · January 31, 2005, 8:59am

Thanks for the link Marite. Excellent article. However, can’t help but see the irony of a big green ad for “Kaplan’s Test Prep” right in the middle of the page!!:rolleyes:

marite · January 31, 2005, 9:03am

My two cents:

S had a list of 6 schools all matches and all super reaches (except for Chicago, perhaps, though I consider it as good as the others on his list). He was not eligible for financial aid, so the ability to compare offers was not a consideration. And while there are many colleges where he could have received merit money, either their size, location or programs were not a good fit for him.
For high-achievers, HYPSM are all “matches” but they are also reaches; and they are all crapshoot. A student rejected at one may be admitted at another. While there was no guarantee that S would be admitted to his top choice, the chances were high that he would be admitted at another on his list, and that he would be happy to attend that school. But which one? Still, had he not been accepted EA to his top choice, we would have added one or two “safeties,” to his list.

jamimom · January 31, 2005, 9:33am

What was that great one liner, “A match does not mean an admit”, or something like that. So true, Marite.

momsdream · January 31, 2005, 9:48am

I wonder how many of the parents who disagree with the approach of applying to 8+ schools are the same parents who disagree with binding ED.

I’ve often heard the argument that bindig ED is a bad idea because kids change so much between October and April. If that’s the case, then I would expect those same parents to support applying to a multitude of very differeent schools - different locations - different cultures - different programs, etc. After all, if the student applies to only 4 schools and those schools all meet what the student believes they want in December, how will the “they might/will change their minds by April” hold water? Or, do they only change between October and December?

jamimom · January 31, 2005, 9:59am

You know, Momsdream, all these choices can really complicate matters, and I have my doubts that it ends up that more kids make the perfect match. It so depends on the kid. In my opinion, most kids will do fine at most colleges. There are some obvious things that you want to matchmake–if you know your kid needs some more attention, a big state U should not be on the list. If your kid really thrives in a city, you don’t want to stick him in Washington College on the Eastern Shore of Md. But other than that, the heartening thing is that most kids really enjoy being away at school and take that next step well, and many of those who do not like it, figure out what they do not about the environment and transfer to something that is a better fit. Those kids who flunk out or are asked to leave, have those issues, not because the college is not a good fit so much as they are having problems with the independence, organization, and prioritizing that needs to be done. Few kids fail because they CAN’T do the work intellectually–it’s the time management and seeking help, study skills, that get them. If you don’t have the choices, they just are not a consideration. Having too many choices can distract everyone from the best choice as well.

marite · January 31, 2005, 10:04am

momsdream:
For students who know their minds and are well-prepared, and whose parents do not need to compare financial aid packages, ED is a great option.
I doubt that students “change so much between October and April.” It’s just that the process of applying focuses their mind. My older S started wanting to go to the West Coast for college, but as the time to make up his mind got closer, so did his idea of the ideal distance. According to his GC, that is utterly typical of students (though, of course, it can go the other way: students who thought of themselves homebodies decide, in the end, that they can tolerate being several hours and several hundred miles away from mom and dad).

As my younger S was writing essays (most of which did not get sent, since he got in EA), he began to articulate what he liked best and least about particular schools (core vs. lack of core; urban vs. suburban; liberal arts vs. engineering). Since he began the process in late summer, he was able to make up his mind in October. But lots of students don’t really start focusing until fall of their senior year, waiting to take or re-take the SAT and SAT-IIs before deciding on a final list of colleges.

sempergumby · January 31, 2005, 10:41am

“two times for the SAT I is enough”

The only person that should make that determination is the student. Many students scores have increased in increments of 100 points with each subsequent test (1st test 1100, 2nd test 1200, 3rd test 1300), particularly the verbal section since one’s vocabulary should improve with time.

jamimom · January 31, 2005, 10:46am

My oldest son took it one last time though he felt he was done, got his highest increase. He had taken it on the advice of*a few colleges that had some invisible cutoffs, and his target school had a nice merit scholarship that he ended up getting when he upped his score. So it can make a big difference to take it more times than twice. My senior son only took it once and what he got made it foolhardy to even thing about taking it again.

soozievt · January 31, 2005, 11:10am

I liked the basic premise of the article but it will take a long time, if ever, to change this admissions frenzy that is the current situation.

Since some of the discussion here is on number of applications, I will put forth my take on that issue. I don’t think there is a magic number as each situation is different. Applying to 4-6 is on the low side unless not applying to very competitive schools. Also times have changed. I applied to five schools way back when but that would be more chancy today. I think for MOST situations (not all), the total number might range between 6 to 10 schools. Frankly, I don’t think there are many kids who should ever need to apply to more than ten, or at least no more than 12. Each of my kids applied to 8. I think if you have a child who is a realistic candidate to highly selective schools, which today have become a crapshoot of odds even for the most qualified candidates, having just 4-6 schools is not realistic or would surely make the odds of having a choice much slimmer. I think when you are that sort of candidate, having a balance that approximates something like 3 reaches, 3 matches, 2 safeties or some variation of that, makes a realistic list. When a kid does not have crapshoot schools on the list or does not even have reaches on the list, that is when applying to five or six schools might work just fine.

Now, I have a kid applying to one of the most selective type of college programs out there. Each one is a crapshoot in my opinion. The admit rate at each one is in the range of approx. 4-8% (most are around 5%). Now, that is a crapshoot cause there are certainly more talented kids than there are spots. And a lot rides on what happens in a few minutes in an audition, not the big application file that also must be submitted like any other candidate. She has 8 schools for BFA degree programs in musical theater and believe me, I am nervous and hope she gets into at least one of these. I cannot imagine applying to any fewer with these odds.

My kids did not do the Common Application but did individual school apps. They wrote numerous essays. If you do this, I cannot imagine how a kid could do much more than 8, particularly if the type of kid who is exceling in school with a heavy workload and a very full array of EC hours seven days per week. I am still amazed my own kids fit in 8 separate applications (and one has the prep for auditions as well). I am befuddled by those with more than a dozen apps. The only long list I have seen that seems justified is Jamimom’s son who seems to have two college processes going at once…a list of BA colleges and then a list of BFA program colleges in musical theater and both lists are competitive and normally each would have maybe 10 schools on it and thus he has a list of 20 as he opted to try for both types of college experiences.

I definitely do NOT get the lists I sometimes see on CC where a kid has applied to every Ivy…or else lists that are all reach schools but long to increase odds but no matches or safeties or else a safety school the kid hates and has no intention of ever going to, such as his local state school. I think no matter how long one’s list is, it should be balanced with approx. 40 % reach schools, 40% match schools, and 20% safety schools.

Now, before anyone says anything, I know most must think my younger D’s list of 8 BFA programs that have admit rates in the single digits is crazy (yes!) but believe me, this is the situation for most of the kids she sees at all these auditions and it is nothing like the normal college admissions process. There are no BFA musical theater programs that could be deemed a true safety. So, you’d have to think long and hard before applying if you are a realistic candidate to enter this particular lottery game. The odds factor does wrack my nerves and if not a BFA candidate, I would never advise someone to have a list with these odds. I wish there were safety BFA degree programs but alas, there are not. Keep fingers crossed please ;-). For most kids, the list should not require fingers crossed to be admitted somewhere!

Susan

jamimom · January 31, 2005, 11:21am

I do not feel my son’s list is justified, for the record. I do NOT recommend it for anyone unless the student has a very organized parent to help him keep track of the process. Because I have worked with apps for a long time and know a lot about the college process, he was able to do this. He also goes to a school that supports getting the process done over the summer with teachers and counselor asking for the recs at the end of junior year, to be ready to send out by the first day of school. He did most of the work over the summer using last year’s apps for the schools as guides. Even so he had a few surprises that made him have to hustle, and we had several bad scheduling conflicts. I have to refer to the files to verify what was done in individual cases, as I cannot juggle this much in my mind either. I would have recommended about 8 schools for my son in the MT field, and then 2-4 safeties, some with MT substitutes in programs, and perhaps a non audition program. There are MT safeties, but most are schools that are not mainline, but obscure. Some like North Texas U do not even require an audition. But when you are trying to get a fit in other areas of the college profile, it is indeed a challenge when you are looking to get into a super selective program. The other type of student that often applies to a huge number of schools is the BA/MD prospect. Those programs are super selective, and there are no safeties except in a good premed program.

charlesives · January 31, 2005, 12:21pm

While I agree wholeheartedly with the gist of the article what I find amusing is the endorsement of the Conservancy’s aims by officials of the most selective of universities. These same officials also decry and question the validity of “rankings”, an particularly the USNews ranking.

However it is the admission practices of these same colleges which are formenting the problem. Now we all know that something less than the perfect “resumes” are required of recruited athletes, legacies, off-spring of the rich and famous, and URM’s to obtain entry onto the hallowed grounds of their campuses. But for the rest, near perfection is the holy grail.

The result is a stressful meritocracy for 95% of the applicants which at times seems somewhat random at best. Some students and parents resort to gaming the system to gain an edge in the process. Sometime it is taken to the extreme as in the case of Blair Hornstein.

There are a number of things that adcoms could do to ameliorate the situation which they seem to deplore. The essay is perhaps a prime culprit where the line between student creativity and unethical assistance on the part of parents, guidance counselors and teachers is violated. Because all the elite colleges require SAT 2’s, why cant ETS create a composition test where the students are required to write a 500 word composition on one of several random Chicagoesque topics. The composition would not be graded by ETS. Copies of the composition would be mailed to the students’ college adcoms in lieu of the typical essay. A second suggestion would be to limit the EC’s on the application to the 4 which the student deems most important and a short explaination as to why and the name of a contact person who the adcom could call to gather additional insight pertaining to the student’s contribution. No supplemental resumes or materials. This would encourage students from participating in an endless list of meaningless activities merely to pad a "resume. It would encourage them to devote more time to a few activities where they have genuine interest and aptitude but would not discourage a “rennaisance” student from participating in a wide range of activities. Those students would just need to choose the few deemed most important. On the matter of SAT tests, colleges should give the students one of two choices. The may either take the test twice and use the best of two scores(V&M) to determine their total admission score. If taken more than twice, the total score would be calculated by taking the average of the individual V&M scores, and eliminating the lowest one. V=650, 700, 680 yeilds an average score of (700+680)/2=690. This would minimize multiple test taking in an attempt to cash in on an “easy” test or a randomly “good” guessing day. Finally, eliminate the Common Application!! Electronically broadcasting the CopmmonApp to 10 or more colleges is making the life of the AdCom far more difficult. It is difficult to slog through 5 well qualified applicants for each fat envelope. When the number increases to 10, the randomness of the process become much more likely.

I think suggestions such as these would go a long way toward improving the current admissions process.

momof2inca · January 31, 2005, 12:53pm

charlesives, I really like those ideas. Nice job!

epiphany · January 31, 2005, 12:59pm

charlesives, While I don’t agree with all of your suggestions, I do agree that the colleges themselves are responsible for much of the problem.

For a long time I have advocated that both graduate & undergraduate programs should design their own tests if “standardized” tests are such bleeping important to colleges. That in itself would accomplish 4 things: target the test more toward what an individual College/U finds important; fashion tests particular to a major or particular school within a college, when/if appropriate; reduce the volume of college apps, due to the logistics of taking multiple tests in multiple proctored locations; eliminate the gaming & big-business aspects of Collegeboard/ETS that you allude to.

Alternatively, small clusters of colleges could combine resources for a single test applicable to those colleges.

Additionally, I have always proposed that the actual high school work (i.e., papers, projects) in their graded form (possibly sent directly BY the teacher, thus eliminating opportunities for fraud), is a much better predictor of college performance than a standardized test which is at best a 54% predictor.

The new SAT I essay portion may prove to be some level of a check against professionally polished essays, as well. But if not, or a second validation is sought, yes, colleges could require their own proctored essays pursuant to a surprise prompt. (Neither my D nor I cared for the UChicago prompts; we found them pretentious & literally sophomoric, but some applicants really like them.)

You do make a lot of sense about the elimination of the Common App, but understand that many students doggedly apply separately to these same colleges, due to not wanting to appear “generic.” And since Supplements to each college are invariably required, I do not think that Common App is most of the source of the problem.

My D and I were “religiously” rigorous about making sure that her essay topics were her choices, & the entire thing was written in her voice. Sometimes, when she asked for my feedback, she ended up rejecting my (reluctantly offered) suggestions for even a word change. While her essays certainly weren’t sloppy, I would call them simple & “unprofessional,” rather than studied or adult-generated. They definitely sounded like they were written by an adolescent, albeit a thoughtful adolescent. When her EA college wrote her recently, congratulating her one more time, the adcom specifically mentioned one of her 2 essays. We had no money for professional consultation, with regard to testing, essay-writing, or resume preparation. That’s just to reinforce that not all selective college admissions result from manipulation of the system.

charlesives · January 31, 2005, 1:19pm

OOPs rennaisance=renaissance. Was never a very good speller!

Boston Globe article on college selection

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