<p>Mini, they would also qualify for Pell if they are low income, so subtract about 16,000. Then factor in Workstudy, and other possible grants. Then, again, factor in that Vermont is a small state, commuting would be possible for many.</p>
<p>I don’t see the likelihood of 50K in loans.</p>
<p>“It will be challenging, but it is possible.”</p>
<p>It IS possible - that’s just my point! Many do it - that’s why the average age of an undergrad is 24.5 years old - and half are older. They don’t go to the flagships, which are often way too expensive and usually too inaccessible and inflexible for the average student. </p>
<p>University of Phoenix wouldn’t be making such a small fortune if the states were spending their money better in educating the citizenry.</p>
<p>“Then, again, factor in that Vermont is a small state, commuting would be possible for many.”</p>
<p>Car to get through the snow. (I will look up the data on commuters at UVM - I think they are rather few and far between, though many students live off campus. Huge numbers of OOS, I’m told - and UVM gets $38+k/year from those.)</p>
<p>“I don’t see the likelihood of 50K in loans.”</p>
<p>I think it would be unwise to take it (as I indicated). And poor folks aren’t stupid. That’s why there are aren’t as many at our state flagship (and why offering “full tuition” hardly makes a dent.) But figure that folks in this category often take 6+ years to graduate, and there is no extra income available from working (because it is supporting the home situation), and all of a sudden $50k is not as unlikely as it might otherwise seem. More likely, of course, is that they don’t finish the degree, and the majority don’t.</p>
<p>That would assume that the student needed to borrow the entire sum and earned no money. It is fairly easy for a student to earn $5K/year between a summer job and minimal work study. That drops the total to around $30K. I also don’t buy the $71k estimate. Someone who makes more like $25-30K should be able to pay off the loans fairly quickly. Obviously that would not work well, if they are also trying to support other family members. Then I don’t understand the expectation for financial aid to cover tuition, all living expenses and also to provide support for family members.</p>
<p>Why is it that a middle class family is expected to save for college, make a big sacrifice to come up with the FAFSA amounts and then need to sacrifice for years to try to recupe?</p>
<p>Mini–we’re somewhat on the same page, but I still maintain that a low income kid with a good high school record can do the traditional age, four year college experience. Some, with enough support, will be able to do so at privates and flagships, some will be able to live on campus. </p>
<p>Little is gained for them by waiting till they are 24 or older. There is no barrier to starting at 18 if that’s what they want.</p>
<p>When I say “no barrier” what I mean is that no additional barrier that won’t disappear as they get older.</p>
<p>“That would assume that the student needed to borrow the entire sum and earned no money.”</p>
<p>I assumed that they were working the entire time, and sometimes two or more jobs while in school. (Remember, I wasn’t referencing low-income students generally speaking; just those who had to work to help support their families). </p>
<p>“but I still maintain that a low income kid with a good high school record can do the traditional age, four year college experience. Some, with enough support, will be able to do so at privates and flagships, some will be able to live on campus.”</p>
<p>Who’s arguing? They do it all the time. (But not often if they are also contributing to their families. Ruth Simmons at Brown University got it right: the “no-loan” policies instituted by some of the prestige colleges primarily benefit upper middle income students - essentially a form of merit aid. What makes a bigger difference is not requiring work study or summer earnings (at least in the first year or two) so that students can either work and send funds home to their families or, alternatively, take advantage of the internship and other opportunities that higher income students are better able to access.) </p>
<p>“Why is it that a middle class family is expected to save for college, make a big sacrifice to come up with the FAFSA amounts and then need to sacrifice for years to try to recupe?”</p>
<p>Working two jobs, going to school full-time, and taking out loans to boot isn’t a sacrifice? Thanks, but I’ll take upper middle class ($92 - $160k) any day!</p>
<p>There are a lot of upper middle class ($92 -$160K) families where the money comes from 2 working adults and one or both of them often works lots more than a single job. They do this to get by and get ahead. When it comes time to send kids to college they get no aid. They just keep working to pay the bills and pay off the tuition expenses and loans.</p>
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<p>If Ruth Simmons got it right, why does Brown maintain one of the most inflexible and egregious policies of work study/summer earnings in the college world? To my knowledge, Brown is one of the few schools that would NOT allow a student to replace his or her expected summer earnings with outside scholarships but simply reduce its own need based grants.</p>
<p>I still do not understand the concept of reverse aid, where the financial aid is expect to support not only the student, but the family. That seems to go well beyond what is reasonable.</p>
<p>Tuition at UMass-Amherst (flagship state u) is only about $1700. Fees are over 6K and total cost of attendance for instate kids is about 17K.</p>
<p>Massachusetts likes to give away free tuition to vals, kids who do well on statewide testing, etc, knowing it’s just a small piece of the total pie.</p>
<p>Actually for 2007-08 in MA the cost will be closer to 19K. I am a MA Val, I applied to UMass Amherst, and I was nominated as a University Scholar 10K/yr, and was accepted in the Commonwealth College of UMass (Honors College). Lots of my friends will be going to UMass as it is definitely more affordable than a private university. </p>
<p>I am fortunate that my family supported my decision to go to school at a private university. Both my family and I thought it was the right decision for me. However, the financial burden will greatly exceed that which we would have had to pay if I had chosen UMass. </p>
<p>It will take some sacrifice from my parents and me; but it was my dream to go to another school. But for the cost you can still get a very good education at your local in-state public university.</p>
<p>I can see that $19k would be a stretch for many families, and that a tuition waiver worth only $1700 is a drop in the bucket of need.</p>
<p>edad: The financial aid is “not expected” to support not only the student but the family as well. Which is exactly why some students cannot afford to go to college. THEY are expected to support wholly or partially their families. We don’t know why the loss of their income would be disastrous for their families, but it seems to be a significant factor in their decisions.</p>
<p>You know the origins of the American school year? Students were expected to work on the farm in the summer month. Same idea.</p>
<p>If these people are really top students then they could apply to a bunch lower tier state schools and grab a full boat scholarship.</p>
<p>Marite, I don’t see how college financial aid can be something that is expected to support the student’s family. I sympathize with their plight – but the issue isn’t the college aid system, it’s whatever is at the heart of their family’s needs – the minimum wage being too low, inadequacy of the welfare system, etc. </p>
<p>I mean, it is tough enough for my 24-year-old son – who IS paying his own way through college - to support himself through a CSU – but he is very happy with his financial aid package for next year: a Pell grant, a $1000 merit award, subsidized loans. I’m happy too - he has practically a full ride. However, no part of that money was designed to be sent home to help me. Of course he doesn’t have to … but if he did, then that would be an entirely different issue. </p>
<p>–
I’d also like to point out that where a kid can’t afford the $12K or so over and above the tuition at the in-state college (which is met through waivers or a Pell grant or merit aid or whatever), the problem is with living expenses, not tuition. So the real problem may be that it simply is expensive to live these days, and hard to eke out a living without a full time job. Again, I am not sure focusing blame on the college aid system addresses that problem. </p>
<p>It would help if the aid system would designate younger students as being financially independent of their parents, but there is a different social policy goal at work: the US government wants those 18-23 year olds to join the military. I don’t agree with that goal, at all – but I see that it is there and built right into the system – and the US government doesn’t give a hoot about my anti-war, liberal inclinations. Military service and ROTC are the best college financial aid systems going, and that’s no accident.</p>
<p>I’m another one who doesn’t buy this story. There is no way that these students have NO college to go to. Community colleges are dirt cheap compared to a 4 year public or private. A kid could stay at home work part-time and still afford to go to college or go part-time to college and work full time. It might not be the most ideal way but it can be done.</p>
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<p>Where did I say it was???</p>
<p>This is what I said:
Pardon me for shouting.</p>
<p>Sorry, Marite, I misread your post and that you mean that the opposite – too many negatives in the sentence: “not expected to support not only…” </p>
<p>(I’m not criticizing your syntax, just pointing out why I got confused by it – I tend to get mixed up with double negatives, especially when scanning quickly through posts on a message board.)</p>
<p>calmom:</p>
<p>That’t the French in me.:)</p>
<p>Mini, I assume you are talking about attending UW as the state’s flagship U? If you allowed the addition of Evergreen, Western, Eastern, Central, and WASU, how many kids in Washington come from families living more than a bus ride from campus? The $18.5k “total cost” would include paying for living expenses like the dorms. About half the state population lives within public transportation range of the UW alone. I’m guessing, but probably 75% of the state lives within bus distance of a public college. There is nothing wrong with living with Mom and/or Dad while going to school. I did. We live about 20 miles from UW, and figured it would have cost less than $10k for Jr to attend there, even without financial aid.</p>
<p>The part I don’t get is how these students can afford NOT to go to college. Sure they may have to go to an inexpensive school and get as much aid as they can, but generally you earn a ton more with a degree than without.</p>
<p>The average lifetime income of college educated people is over 1,000,000 dollars more than HS grads. That 71k that they have to pay(per an earlier post) is a bargain. If you were offered a trade of 1,000,000 for 71,000, you would take it in a second.</p>
<p>And yes I do realize that these students are expected to support their families, and seemingly can’t get out from those costs. But taking out loans and paying them off is a much better long term decision than not going to college. Going to a CC for free then transfering to a 4 year and only having to pay for a couple years rather than 4 may be better, but not going to college, that is something that these people cannot afford.</p>
<p>Nearly anyone has a state school within reasonable driving distance, and many schools offer at-least full tuition for vals and the like. So if people commute, they can go to college for no more than 20k total. So they can afford it. People may not know how(lack of publicity given to many of these programs that allow low cost education is a major problem), but the opprotunities are certainly there for the vast majority of students. Some do not have the opprotunity, due to extreme circumstances, but even the poorest of students usually can do college. Hell, Harvard offers full rides to anyone under 60k, you just have to fill out your FAFSA.</p>
<p>Lack of awareness is a bigger problem than lack of ability.</p>
<p>Oakland University(Auburn Hills, Michigan) would offer full room and board(schollie, not loan or work) to any of those Vals(if they were from Michigan), and would be within a reasonable driving distance from Detroit. I’m sure Wayne would have the same, and schools in every state would have similar setups.</p>
<p>The problem is that some families tell their children that they can’t afford college, and that the kids aren’t allowed to apply/attend, whether or not the actual situation reflects that.</p>
<p>Doing the FAFSA, and applying for financial aid takes a certain amount of organizational dicipline. I finished college after I was able to declare myself independent, partially due to the difficulty my mom had completing all the financial aid forms. And that was long ago now. </p>
<p>A physician I go to mentioned recently that he gave up on the FAFSA after getting so frustrated with the PIN number situation, that it didn’t seem worth it for the few loans they might be eligible for. I’ve known a few otherwise bright people who can’t imagine tackling the FAFSA. </p>
<p>At this point in time, many people don’t balance their checkbooks or do their own taxes. Taking on the Fafsa, not to mention the Profile and some of the supplimentary forms from LAC, might be quite the burden for some stressed or disorganized families. </p>
<p>I know it stresses me, and I need a day or two at home to get those forms and my taxes complete in a timely fashion. This year, with multiple collge applications, it was the subtext to the entire month of Feb!</p>