<p>So how would you know whether the kids are 1. open-minded? 2 have learned what they’re supposed to learn?</p>
<p>How would colleges know which to admit and which to reject among students from wildly different backgrounds and experiences?</p>
<p>I recall in grad school a prof being elated at what he thought had been his best lecture of the semester. He asked his TFs to poll the students. The verdict: the lecture had been far too elementary. Sometimes, teachers are not the best assessors of their own performance. What they say or think they say is not always what the students hear or absorb. </p>
<p>I would not want a kid to be given license to drive without some sort of test, why should students be certified as having passed a particular class without some kind of evaluation?</p>
<p>“What would happen if we experimented and ended testing? What if the schools concentrated on the exchange of ideas in the classroom? What if creativitiy and academic passion were the focus?”</p>
<p>That does happen in college. Is it too much to ask that before kids go to college, they should have solid foundation?</p>
<p>Take example of buildings the fronts could be unique with lots of creativity, but the foundations are about the same and boring.</p>
<p>How many colleges have no testing? There are plenty of seminar style classes. But in the end, students are tested, usually in the form of a paper. But the majority of college classes still have tests: midterms, finals, quizzes, problem sets, etc… I don’t think these stifle creativity or passion.</p>
<p>“Anyone who thinks public schools can offer the same teaching and resources as a private school are nuts. I don’t know where you live but if the private school is respectable at all it’s going to have superior teachers, more programs, and smarter kids.”</p>
<p>Having one child in private high school and one in public high school in NYC, I categorically disagree. The private school teachers rarely have advanced degrees and are often not certified, they make about half the salary of their public school counterparts and few of the benefits. The population is homogeneous and generally wealthy and entitled. The public school (an elite program) is totally different, all the teachers have advanced degrees and are just spectacular teachers (in the elite programs, I mean, because seniority does allow for good options), there are partnerships with corporations, law firms, Bill Gates and with universities here in NYC to allow gifted students to have priceless opportunities. Having an average kid and a gifted one, I can say with certainty that the perks/opportunities/teachers available in the gifted programs in NYC public schools are unmatched by private schools except, say Dalton and its ilk, and even that is not a sure thing.</p>
<p>"If the students “don’t test well,” then how do they manage do get all those good grades in school? Aren’t their grades based on tests? They did well on those tests – or are the class tests just easier? Perhaps the students “don’t test well” only when the test is difficult for them. "</p>
<p>Snideness aside, my older daughter is one of those. She has an incredibly nervous stomach and had talked herself into a panic attack (complete with bringing a barf bag to the test) on the day of the SAT and totally tanked (less than 1500 on all three sections). Now for the ACT, she knew ahead of time that it had a science section (her comfort zone) and since no one at her school took the ACT, she had no preconceived notions and scored a 28 (which is not stellar, but is absolutely right on for her abilities). So, yes, it does happen. You may not have test anxiety, but plenty of people do.</p>
<p>"Having an average kid and a gifted one, I can say with certainty that the perks/opportunities/teachers available in the gifted programs in NYC public schools are unmatched by private schools "</p>
<p>NYC is not the nation.</p>
<p>In my D’s private school & peer schools in that area, the teachers hired usually have advanced degrees. Pay can vary depending on individual school policy. It is generally lower in <em>parochial</em> schools (which also usually do not require advanced degrees), but those are most definitely not peer schools to the secular privates. The more clued-in privates pay & benefit comparable to the best public districts, treat their teachers much better than the publics do in the same locale, protect them from over-administering, from discipline problems, from policing, & allow them a great deal of autonomy vs. publics. (Those of us who really love teaching really like control over how we teach & to some extent what we teach; much less option for this in the public system.)</p>
<p>The parochial, diocesan schools in our area offer an average education, i.m.o. (My daughters & friends having endured seemingly interminable years with mediocrity until high school; friends’ families who preferred the lower tuition at the parochials & maintaining the same social circles & convenience, opted to stay in that system. From the entire high school sr. class, one student got accepted to Cal Tech, one to Pomona; those were the best results.)</p>
<p>I don’t recall stating or implying that it is. I do recall sharing my personal experience, which is different than that which I quoted. The point of MY post was that the NYC public school system does a spectacular job in its top programs.</p>
<p>I’m not suggesting no testing - ever. I am suggesting an experiment of sorts - one that chucks the testing and stress over it and gives a teacher time to teach and students time to learn. Then test them (essay) and see how they compare to those who had testing rammed down their throats. The point is, what is being used now isn’t working. Time to think outside the box, even if it’s on a small, experimental scale. Just a thought. </p>
<p>Who has seen the movie Freedom Writers? True story. And probably the best movie of the year.</p>
<p>“I’m not suggesting no testing - ever. I am suggesting an experiment of sorts - one that chucks the testing and stress over it and gives a teacher time to teach and students time to learn.”</p>
<p>What would that prove? Half of my son’s classmates in AP classes had an A. But they failed to score above 2 in the AP test. It will just confirm the study that class grades and test scores don’t correlate.</p>
<p>ITA with you. Our child’s experience in one of AP classes last year was the polar oppposite of your sons. Not a single A was given in either semester, several B’s, lots of C’s & even a D. However, not one of the kids scored lower than a 4 on the AP Exam in that subject. It was the hardest year he ever loved, with that demanding, rigorous, high expectation teacher. </p>
<p>I maintain, grading is SUBJECTIVE to an infinite degree.</p>
<p>^Yep, same at my school. We have a few classes that are known for this but every student recieves a 4 or 5 on the exam [mostly 5s]. I would much rather be in this situation–the classes I have taken like that are amazing…I really felt like I was being stretched academically for the first time.</p>
<p>Tests other than in essay format are necessary. Essays are difficult to grade objectively, and often the better writers receive better scores just because thier content /sounds/ more polished. Multiple choice/other formats are more indicative of content-based learning.</p>
<p>Marite brought up a point seldom discussed, that the biology,chemistry, physics sequence does not reflect the current scientific approach. When I first went to my son’s biology class in back to school night, I was told the first month of the course will be spent on chemistry. I understand this is necessary, but it clearly is not efficient to take away one month of biology instruction in a nine month course.</p>
<p>My high school was like marite’s, we had biology, chemistry and physics every year. The sequence finished at grade 11. Doing it this way certainly did not hurt my SAT subject test (called achievement test back then) score. I believe that as long as there is a reasonable complete curriculum, you can take any standardized test at the right level in that field. It is not necessary to tailor the course to target any particular standardized test.</p>
<p>The content of SAT1 math covers the most basic part of algebra and geometry. It is not necessary for any math curriculum to target SATM. It is certainly not necessary to include SATM material in the 3rd year high school math.</p>