<p>I think Jahi is really and truly dead. No hope. But I believe in the judicial process. Once her family sought intervention from the court, the process needed to be completed. Unpopular litigants and positions, just as unpopular speech, are entitled to every protection available under the Constitution.</p>
<p>The Texas case is interesting. I’m 100% pro-choice, but I’m not sure that even if the mom had expressed a post-pregnancy, pre-mortem choice in the matter that the desire of a brain-dead person should overcome the interest of the fetus in being born. That birth won’t hurt the brain-dead mom, so what interest would be advanced by denying the child the chance to be born? Getting back to previous posts, though: does this situation constitute “desecration” of a corpse?</p>
<p>Sue22, it’s not clear that that is the case. The mom’s brain may have been deprived of oxygen while the rest of her body was not.</p>
<p>I don’t consider a 14 week fetus to be a baby.
I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks, and not only did my Dr do a d & c in the examining room when I didn’t stop bleeding, there wasn’t a death/birth certificate, so my state didn’t consider a fetus to be a baby either.
( this was over 30 yrs ago)
Does Texas allow therapeutic abortion?</p>
<p>Kluge - don’t you think the fetal brain was O2 deprived? So it looks like in TX pregnant women and their families have a different set of rights than non-pregnant people (the keeping a pregant woman “alive” laws override any DNRs).</p>
<p>I have been thinking about this family all day. The fact that a doctor has told them their daughter is not dead will make it impossible for them to be convinced otherwise. I can’t even blame them for that; I’d probably grab onto that myself if I were in their shoes, even if for only a short time.</p>
<p>Very very sad.</p>
<p>I had a tonsillectomy at age 18. I went into the hospital the same day as a little kid, and I felt bad and had more extensive bleeding and recovery than he did. I stayed in hospital longer because of it. </p>
<p>Up till that experience, I always thought minor surgery was safe. No surgery is without risks, as others have said. </p>
<p>I have no idea what I would do as a parent in this situation. I think I would do the smart thing for my child, but I have a friend that did just the oppositite. It was hard to see her go through that and cause pain to her child. She saw it differently. It is easy to say what I would do now, but when uou are the other end of it, it may look different. I appreciate reading the perspectives here. </p>
<p>I am not sure if it is covered in all the posts (I am reading backwards) but will her organs be suitable for transplant when she is removed from ventilator?</p>
<p>BB: I don’t know one way or the other. I don’t think the doctors do, either. That’s part of the problem: some aspects of medical science and technology have outrun others. They do know how to keep the mom’s body alive long enough for the baby to be born, but we don’t know why the mom died or what happened to the baby when it happened.</p>
<p>I understand that people like simpler, black and white answers. But sometimes things are just complicated, whether we like it or not. As Nrdsb4 points out, a doctor has told the family that the girl is not dead. I disagree with that, but I acknowledge that he’s better qualified to have an opinion than I am. So if I was the dad here, would I ignore that? That’s why we have judges. Problems which don’t actually have 100% agreement and which affect significant rights have to be resolved, and courts are what we use to do that.</p>
<p>How can a hospital bureaucrat who has not even examined the patient be “qualified” to give the diagnosis? And before you start flaming me, here is what I know firsthand: there are MDs out there who have not been practicing medicine for many years yet they still are “doctors”.</p>
<p>kluge: neurons are neurons. If one is dprived of O2 because there is no blood flow, the other one is, too. It sounds that the doctors in TX are not very happy with what they have to do, but they obide the laws. To date, there have been only 22 or so successful deliveries of babies by dead mothers. The unsuccessful ones mostly go unpublished. Only a couple of teams made attempts to publish their failures to counterbalance the other side. It is not cut and dry, as you say. Take a read:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.sonoma.edu/users/c/catlin/fetus%20alive%20mother%20dead.pdf[/url]”>http://www.sonoma.edu/users/c/catlin/fetus%20alive%20mother%20dead.pdf</a></p>
<p>Here’s more and some new details. Doesn’t sound like it’s ending anytime soon.</p>
<p>[Jahi</a> McMath’s mother: ‘How can you possibly say my child is dead?’ - latimes.com](<a href=“Jahi McMath's mother: 'How can you possibly say my child is dead?'”>Jahi McMath's mother: 'How can you possibly say my child is dead?')</p>
<p>This case does seem more “cut and dry” . When numerous people have come to the same conclusion, I don’t personally see that there is any gray area there (and legal and medical "experts " seem to agree ).</p>
<p>I’m having trouble understanding something. On the one hand the hospital said that by keeping her on a ventilator her body is healing and the longer they wait the less likely it is that they will be able to figure out what caused her death. But at the same time we have people saying that her body is decomposing on the inside. Which is it? Plus how can her body be decomposing on the inside but the pregnant lady’s body is Texas isn’t?</p>
<p>BunsenBurner’s link is fascinating. They give a long list of treatments necessary to preserve the brain-dead mother in order that the fetus has a chance to survive. She has to be turned to prevent pressure sores, and given various drugs. She has to be monitored constantly.</p>
<p>That intensive treatment could be justified to give the fetus a chance. But in the Jahi case, all that medical treatment is giving nobody a chance. It’s just a huge waste of critical resources.</p>
<p>*I think the complicating factor in the Texas case is that the fetus has likely been deprived of oxygen and, if born alive, is likely to be born with significant disabilities.
*</p>
<p>Is that true? How long was it deprived of oxygen?</p>
<p>And in cases where there hasn’t been any deprivation of oxygen, would that make a difference for you?</p>
<p>*That birth won’t hurt the brain-dead mom, so what interest would be advanced by denying the child the chance to be born?
*</p>
<p>I agree. </p>
<p>Getting back to previous posts, though: does this situation constitute “desecration” of a corpse?</p>
<p>Since “desecration of a corpse” isn’t an individual definition, I don’t think we can have such a definition in this case, otherwise another woman opting for this in a living will would be denied due to desecration of a corpse. Besides I don’t know how this is desecration, but harvesting of organs for donation isn’t (which I don’t think is, either).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This reminds me of a polish joke. Someone ordered a rabbit stew at a restaurant. When the food came, he mostly tasted horse meat. Hearing his complaint, the owner assured him, it’s only 50% horse meat, 1 horse and 1 rabbit.</p>
<p>Im wondering who is responsible for the medical expenses in Texas since both the spouse & parents have stated further intervention is against their wishes.
Im also wondering who will be responsible if/when the infant is viable and needs extensive care.
The state?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It could certainly make a difference to the family.</p>
<p>We should make a list/ poll on the question
copy down the post with the latest updated votes and put your vote down.
She is dead?</p>
<p>Yes
wcao9311</p>
<p>No</p>
<p>I don’t think you will get many (any) no votes on this thread. But they’re out there.</p>
<p>It’s actually amazing.</p>
<p>wcao9311, I doubt that you are a parent and I doubt anybody here will be taking a poli.
This is tragic and hopefully will be resolved soon.</p>
<p>Happened to have dinner with a friend who is an ENT. We talked about this case. He said the tonsils are precariously close to the carotid arteries, and every now and then someone has a minor congenital difference in their vasculature that can cause what should be a routine surgery to go bad. Fast. And the risk of a bleed from any tonsillectomy can last for days. Too much coughing, etc can cause an area that is vulnerable after surgery to blow (I am paraphrasing, after a glass of truly terrible sparkling wine. Happy new year from the east coast).</p>