<p>It may seem phony to you but I think any ethics committee would agree with the hospital on this. They are not going to put a trach or feeding tube in a deceased person just because the mother thinks she is not dead.</p>
<p>IMO there is a big difference between training on donated cadavers and a licenced physician performing a procedure on a precariously fragile individual who has been declared dead but whose system is being artificially kept functioning, with grieving family members standing by. Big difference. </p>
<p>Medical ethics say first and foremost “do no harm”. One could reasonably argue that this prolonged process is doing harm to the family.</p>
<p>And harm to the child in not allowing her to die with dignity. This has become a circus.</p>
<p>It was a circus weeks ago. It’s getting bigger, but it began oddly and continues to get stranger and stranger. It’s actually unbelievable, now.</p>
<p>Initially, it was weird.</p>
<p>Interesting question and answer discussion here [Q&A:</a> Girl’s brain death ignites difficult debate](<a href=“http://news.yahoo.com/q-girl-39-brain-death-ignites-difficult-debate-223156884.html]Q&A:”>http://news.yahoo.com/q-girl-39-brain-death-ignites-difficult-debate-223156884.html)</p>
<p>They are not students and this is not for practice. They are COMPLETELY different scenarios. She did not donate her body to science.</p>
<p>Its hard to discern if ethically they would consider harm to the child since she is dead, and no longer at risk of harm. The family is harmed by the indignity of the process.</p>
<p>It’s hard to argue that the family is being harmed when they are the ones putting themselves out there with this situation. Presumably, the attorney is acting on their behalf and at their wishes. They were on TV before they had an attorney making the same case. It’s just awful.</p>
<p>Marian–Cardinal Fang’s mordantly funny/tragic monologue is not saying that ventilators mean someone is otherwise dead. It’s saying that in this case, the ventilator is providing a facsimile of her being alive. I am sure you already know the difference, but I think it’s important to point out that CF’s monologue does not imply in any way that not-breathing-without-ventilator means dead per se.</p>
<p>Right, garland, and as jym626 recognized, it’s the monologue from the Monty Python late parrot sketch.</p>
<p>I affirm that ventilators have a legitimate medical use. Just not in this sad case.</p>
<p>It can be argued that the family is being harmed, as they are being pulled by conflicting information. That said, the other tenets are things like beneficence (act in the best interest of the patient), respect for persons (is she still a “person”?), truthfulness and honesty, etc.</p>
<p>I’ve tried to read most of this thread, and quite a few of the linked articles, but I’ve yet to see or read anything mentioning this girl’s father. I’ve read about her stepfather, uncle (I think mother’s brother), grandmother (again, probably mother’s mother), and other siblings (three others I think), but nothing about the father.</p>
<p>The mother obviously has custody, if there was a divorce, or out-of-wedlock birth, but what if the father was still around and decided to step forward? I’m guessing he would have done so by now, but is there not a possibility that he could come forward and side with the hospital?</p>
<p>Has anyone seen or read anything regarding the birth father’s presence in the girl’s life?</p>
<p>I think that the parents have been told by a doctor that their child is alive. They are not medically savvy, and they are naturally going to cling to those words. </p>
<p>If I personally believed my child was alive and then a doctor told me he agreed, I would also likely fight fiercely to “save” her. The parents are not medically savvy and it’s perfectly understandable that they could be very easily convinced to fight on her behalf. It’s these ancillary people around her whose motives I question. </p>
<p>I just read that the NY facility is not licensed. The founders’ backgrounds are personal exposure to TBI, hair styling, and real estate.</p>
<p>I guess, but they had to go all the way to Ohio to find one MD to support their argument. I mean, they have to understand some of this at some level. The grandmother is a nurse for Pete’s sake. I understand being clouded by grief but this happened on Dec. 9th and it’s almost disrespectful to assume that they are incapable of any degree of comprehension. That said, I have no answers.</p>
<p>Some where above someone linked a quote from some clown who claimed that only a “live” person could exhale. Thats nonsense. In the case of the vent, the lungs are essentially acting like balloons. Push air in, they fill up. Stop, they deflate. A balloon has no conscious ability to exhale.</p>
<p>kluge - This is not a learning exercise performed on a donated to science corpse in a lab. Performing surgeries in order to sustain the “life” of a dead body just because someone says the body is not dead steps into the territory of charlatan medicine and quackery.</p>
<p>jym, astoundingly, that comment came from Dr. Byrne. It’s absolutely incredible to me to read that he has no clear understanding of how mechanical ventilation works. How could he be a neonatal specialist and not have a very firm understanding of such a basic fact?</p>
<p>^^^ From what I read on the NY facility’s website (via a link from this thread), the medical director’s bio is not too shabby. I’m sure if I dug deeper, I’d find some skeletons, but he’s a legitimate physician with some professional recognition.<br>
[International</a> Brain Research Foundation, Inc.](<a href=“http://www.ibrfinc.org/bio_jonathan_fellus.htm]International”>http://www.ibrfinc.org/bio_jonathan_fellus.htm)</p>
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<p>I do think that a deceased person can also be harmed(even though they are not aware of it obviously) by not being allowed to be laid to rest, having their remains not treated properly, attacks on reputation or habits,etc.</p>
<p>As I said earlier, if this were not so tragic , it would be comical (hence the Monty Python stuff and headlines to the effect that a dead person is being given life support-something Jay Leno would have a field day with in stupid headlines if it weren’t so tragic. I really wish someone the mother trusts would help her understand that her child is dead and that keeping her on a ventilator is not going to bring her back.</p>
<p>Thats absolutely disgraceful, nrdsb4. That man ought to have his license yanked. Wonder how much they have to pay him to say that stuff?</p>