<p>Flossy, it’s been discussed here by many posters that it wasn’t just a tonsillectomy leading to a three-day ICU stay. There were two other procedures done (complicating factors because she was under anesthesia longer), and the girl is morbidly obese (a HUGE complicating factor). That is the other side to this tragic situation. And even if it was just a tonsillectomy, there are lots of stories of people having post-operative bleeding, a few of which have resulted in death. The media headlines are playing with our emotions by making it seem like it was just a routine surgery; any time you add in obesity, it’s no longer routine anymore. I’ll bet my house that these parents were told of the risks to operating on an obese child, but (as most of us would have done), laid them aside because the odds were in her favor that she’d be fine. But she wasn’t. I’m sure these parents are playing those conversations (with the surgeons, pre-operatively) over and over again in their minds and feel horrible. </p>
<p>Now… what exactly happened in the recovery room when she started to bleed out??? That’s where we’re only hearing one side of the story, as it should be for now. No matter how tempting, the hospital should not be releasing any information regarding her care. It’s illegal. If it’s part of the court records, then obviously that’s different. But for now, we aren’t hearing anything regarding what happened in the recovery room.</p>
<p>My Dad was over medicated on his blood thinners, had a brain hemorrhage and they had to give large doses of clotting meds so they could operate. He suffered a series of strokes. My Mom was told he was in a vegetative state and the choice was hers. She didn’t have the stomach to look at his brain scan so I got the job. There was no doubt that he would never recover. </p>
<p>My MIL just passed in October from Alzheimer’s complications. She had good days and bad, but was in serious pain because of multiple spine fractures. One morning she had a heart attack and went into renal trouble. We are so thankful that she had a health directive. She was a very polite and gracious woman, but was getting frustrated at the end and when people kept asking “what did you say Mom” she then loudly announced “I want to die” Sad, yet a Blessing.</p>
<p>I cannot imagine letting a child go, but having seen an MRI/ CT scan of severely damaged brain I just cannot understand how that visual doesn’t make it clear to the parents.</p>
<p>Actually, if she is under hospice care, she is terminal. That’s the only way someone can be signed up for hospice. It requires a physician’s orders and by writing the orders, that physician has basically said, without intervention (feeding tube and/or ventilator) the disease that the patient has will take their life within six months if allowed to progress without any treatment. It doesn’t preclude symptomatic treatment, i.e. oxygen via nasal canula, medications for other diseases the patient might have, special mattresses to help minimize bed sores, etc. However, the hospice agency along with the patient’s physician have to recertify the patient and document decline every 2-3 months; as long as they can document decline, patients can stay on hospice. I’ve seen dementia/Alzheimers patients continue to decline (weight loss, sleeping more, etc), yet still be alive after 2-3 years, so they’ve been able to remain on hospice services (although these kinds of stories are more the exception). But in order to be on hospice services, they have to have a terminal diagnosis with an expectation that they will not live beyond six months.</p>
<p>The point is sevmom, if your MIL had had an MI or stroke and was under hospice care, she would have been treated for her symptoms, but aggressive treatment would not have been taken to prolong her life, which is what I’m sure her family would have wanted, right? I’ve seen many people in your MIL’s situation; but I also saw my fair share with very predictable declines all of a sudden, within a week or two, decline rapidly after a number of months with very little notice of decline.</p>
<p>Not sure what you’re really asking teriwtt, so not sure I can answer your question. She never had an MI or stroke while under hospice care so we never had to react to that, she never developed pneumonia, etc. She never really had a crisis while in hospice care, her condition just deteriorated over time .</p>
<p>"That’s where we disagree. The definition of “brain dead” as meaning “dead” is a policy decision. It’s not self-evident (as is complete body death, which follows from a cessation of blood circulation) It’s just a convenient (and defensible) “bright line” rule. The McMath family believes that their daughter is “still alive” and there are people who aren’t crackpots who agree with them. "</p>
<p>The overwhelming majority of neurologists disagree. Kluge, this argument is like saying “I don’t believe in evolution and there are people who aren’t crackpots who agree with me.”</p>
<p>Can someone explain the part of the independent doctor’s examination, on the second page, about the Apnea Test? For Examination One, he writes that the apnea duration was 9 minutes. Does that mean that they turned off the ventilator for nine minutes and she didn’t breathe? 'Cause if my relative were dependent on a ventilator, I wouldn’t want them to turn it off and wait nine minutes.</p>
<p>“Now… what exactly happened in the recovery room when she started to bleed out???”</p>
<p>What I read was that it didn’t happen in the recovery room. I remember reading it happened on the ward, she was unable to communicate, and was writing messages to her family. She had somehow asked for, or been offered, an ice pop, then she started to bleed . Somehow, the girl and her family were suctioning. Given how friable the clots in her throat probably were, I can’t imagine that would be good.</p>
<p>" APNEA TEST FOR DETERMINATION OF CLINICAL BRAIN DEATH"</p>
<p>Says 10 minutes. Another reference says " The possible complications of this test include severe hypotension, pneumothorax, excessive hypercarbia, hypoxia, acidosis, and cardiac arrhythmia or asystole. The occurrence of any of these complications may constrain the examiner to abort the test, thereby compromising BD diagnosis.[1–7] However, when an appropriate oxygen-diffusion procedure is used, this technique is safe.[8–16]"</p>
<p>From the article I read, she was bleeding profusely and her family was suctioning her in lieu of staff.
( I think this was from an nbc article up thread)
It probably was after the recovery room since her family was there.</p>
<p>Yes, that’s one of the things I have been confused about. It seems risky for any non medical person to start doing things such as suctioning someone who is starting to bleed from such vulnerable areas.</p>
<p>I read that after recovery (which went well), she was place in the ICU. The bleeding supposedly occured after eating a popsicle. As far as the rumor that the grandmother was handed a suctioning tool and proceeded to suction off the blood on her own, I don’t believe it. The girl was in the ICU. No one is going to hand off medical equipment and medical care from the the ICU staff to a grandmother. Now, if that grandmother attempted to suction off the blood on her own accord, she very well may have triggered the massive hemorrhage that followed by dislodging formed clots and/or opening the surgical site. Remember, we have only heard the family’s version of what happened in the ICU. As of now, we don’t know all of the facts. We don’t know the entire factual account of what happened between recovery and the subsequent bleeding and heart attack.</p>
<p>In the ICU and can’t find staff doesn’t ring true to me either. And that suctioning stuff is not a rumor but rather a quote from a family member. Not sure who.</p>