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<p>Interesting how no one has acknowledged the utter truth of this statement. America itself is so culturally derivative of “the mother country” that most Americans take these profound roots for granted.</p>
<p>coureur, I’ve googled British Isles and it looked like Ireland was included? Cultural identification is interesting but the ideas of what is British seems somewhat open to interpretation. There was or is" British" influence in lots of places-Canada,Australia, India, etc.Maybe somebody can clarify as I may be misinerpreting the British Isles/ Ireland stuff. DonnaL and Marian, I think you might find some cool clothes and good food, even in England.</p>
<p>I couldn’t agree more with ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad’s posts about hyphen-Americans. </p>
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<p>My Dad’s Irish (really Irish. As in born there, grew up there and has an Irish passport), but I’ve only been to Ireland once! I can’t even really remember it, but clearly I am more Irish than 99.9% of Irish Americans. I don’t think of myself as Irish. I don’t have any connection to the place. But if I mention this to an American, they ALWAYS have an ancestor 12 generations back who was Irish. The problem is, I don’t care! I don’t think most real Irish people do either. It doesn’t impress anyone (except maybe other hyphen-Americans) and at worst I just think people are making fun of me.</p>
<p>As to being English, I’ve lived in England for 10 years now so these are my observations for what it’s worth.</p>
<p>The flag of England (Cross of St George. Red cross on a white background) has basically been hijacked by the facists. Google British National Party (or actually don’t. You can imagine). People don’t fly it or like being associated with it outside of sporting events (particularly the England football team) and occasionally on St George’s day. Innocent people don’t want to be accused of being a racist. Also, 4/5 Britons are English. It’s by far the most dominant culture in the UK. So I think people don’t really need anything specific to tag themselves with. They exist and so they are. English people see English and British as being inter-changeable terms usually. But Scottish and Welsh get really offended at being called English. Classic example is tennis player Andy Murray who is Scottish. English people have no problem embracing him and supporting him as he is British. They see him as being a member of their country, of their group. But Scottish people would NO WAY support and English tennis player. </p>
<p>The press regularly discuss “identity crisis” in England. It’s the kind of hand-wringing and pointless soul-searching they like mid-summer when there is no real news. See for example</p>
<p>[England’s</a> identity crisis | UK news | The Guardian](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/28/england-identity-national-football]England’s”>England's identity crisis | British identity and society | The Guardian)</p>
<p>The “British Isles” is commonly used as a geographic term for all the islands, including Ireland. However, Ireland is NOT part of GB the country, socially or politically. So don’t use that term to describe Ireland outside of a geography class. It’s not the way to make friends and influence people who are Irish!</p>
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No, the Irish, after the previously mentioned centuries of murder and oppression, have mostly escaped the term “British,” except for the occupied north. However, the north is still unfree, and English occupation of Ireland has been a tyrannous eight and a half centuries (currently around 841 years).</p>
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They were the Celtic Isles first. And the Britons who were slaughtered, driven back, and oppressed by the invading Angles and Saxons became the Welsh. The English may be German, but most of the people on the islands are Celts, be they the Gaels of </p>
<p>They didn’t only become the Welsh; people in Cornwall are also Celts, and, of course, Brittany in France was populated by people who left Britain by reason of the Anglo-Saxon invasions. And I’m sure there were plenty who remained right where they were and intermingled with the Anglo-Saxons. </p>
<p>But to call the English “Germans” is ridiculous. After 1500 years? I guess you’re forgetting all the Romans and Danes and Vikings and Normans (originally Norsemen themselves), among others. Including the Vikings who founded Dublin! So the Irish aren’t exactly pure either. Whatever they once were, they’re certainly not the “Celtic Isles” now. </p>
<p>To say that “most” of the people in the UK and Ireland are Celts sounds even more ridiculous. If there are 61 million people in the UK, 51 million live in England. Another 6 million or so live in Ireland. I’d love to know how that adds up to “most” being Celts.</p>
<p>Not to mention that the Celts themselves were invaders and oppressors once upon a time, with respect to the previous population. Who do you think built Stonehenge and Avebury and all the rest? The Celts fully established themselves in Britain only about 600 years or so before the Romans arrived.</p>
<p>PS: I have no personal stake in this; I’m Jewish, and nobody in my family ever lived in the British Isles except for my mother for 5 years before and during World War II.</p>
<p>See this to get some idea of the diversity of Britain:</p>
<p><a href=“Who Do You Think You Are - Wikipedia”>Who Do You Think You Are - Wikipedia;
<p>[BBC</a> - BBC One Programmes - Who Do You Think You Are?: Series 1](<a href=“http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b008dqw9]BBC”>BBC One - Who Do You Think You Are?, Series 1)</p>
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<p>Well, the English language in a member of the Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages. And the Angles and Saxons invaded Britain from an area that is now mostly a part of Germany and was then full of many Germanic tribes similar to themselves. But of course the modern English, and Germans too for that matter, are genetically a complex admixture of many peoples. </p>
<p>In fact I read a scientific study once of the distribution of genes throughout modern Europe, and it clearly showed that the vast majority of European nationalities were indistinguishable from each other at the genetic level. Genetically, the English look just like the French, who look just like the Germans, and so on. As I recall the only European nationalities or ethnicities that could be reliably distinguished from the others were the Finns, the Basques, the Sardinians, and maybe one other that I’m forgetting - the Greeks or something.</p>
<p>But to call the English “Germans” is ridiculous.<<</p>
<p>That is, unless you are a member of the Royal Family who changed the family name in 1917 from Saxe-Coburg und Gotha to Windsor.</p>
<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Good_Riddance_-_George_V_of_the_United_Kingdom_cartoon_in_Punch,_1917.png[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Good_Riddance_-_George_V_of_the_United_Kingdom_cartoon_in_Punch,_1917.png</a></p>
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Good_Riddance_-_George_V_of_the_United_Kingdom_cartoon_in_Punch,_1917.png[/url]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Good_Riddance_-_George_V_of_the_United_Kingdom_cartoon_in_Punch,_1917.png%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
<p>The Royal Family doesn’t count! George I didn’t even speak English, and spent most of his time in Hanover. Although his great-grandson George III* made something of a big deal out of having been born in England. </p>
<p>I meant, of course, that it’s ridiculous to call the English “Germans” now, 1500 years after the Anglo-Saxon invasions. I’m well aware of the language family English belongs to.</p>
<p>*Great-grandson rather than grandson because George III’s father Frederick didn’t survive his own father, George II. One of a number of Princes of Wales who didn’t live long enough to make it to the throne, like the older brothers of Henry VIII, Charles I, and George V. Hopefully not a bad omen for the rapidly aging Prince Charles.</p>
<p>“Germans” has come to mean “citizens of the country of Germany.” However, the English people are a Germanic people. Yes, there has been some mixing with the Norse and other groups, but Anglo-Saxons are primarily, well, Anglo-Saxon.</p>
<p>
“Then came the three mad Georges
and they had us nearly fooled.
They couldn’t speak the lingo
of the coutries that they ruled.
Puppets of ascendancy they kept the Irish down,
but the rebels and the whiteboys kept
their armies on the run.”</p>
<p>I think it does show that the English identified enough with the Germans at least at the time of George I to invite him to become their monarch. And that’s after most of the 1500 years had already passed.</p>
<p>Charles’ mother just turned 85 yesterday and shows no sign of stepping down or dying anytime soon. So, Charles may have a wait to become King. He was asked in an interview about how he feels about eventually becoming King and he said something to the effect that that was a difficult question-because his becoming King would mean his mother had died. I am not getting what was said exactly right but I was struck by how pensive and solemn he seemed about the whole thing.</p>
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I would hope most people would rather have a living mother than an ultimately meaningless crown.</p>
<p>BillyMc-I agree -hopefully most people would rather have their mother alive.However, there are numerous examples (and not just in England) of attempts to take over a monarchy or presidency for instance-sometimes the plots are by other family members. I think in general being an heir to a throne is probably not all it’s cracked up to be. Lots of privilege but also lots of responsibility and expectations .</p>
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You’re right about past plots, but those were more in the time when being monarch actually meant something. If I was English, I would be mad about having a monarchy and House of Lords, but I’m not, so I just pay little attention. Anyway, I don’t think there’s a big step up in power from Prince to King.</p>
<p>Did the Welsh consent to the title “Prince of Wales,” or was it yet another action of imperialism?</p>
<p>If Queen Elizabeth takes after her mother – and she does seem quite vigorous for an 85-year old – she could be around for another 15 or 20 years. Which would make Charles about 80 by the time he becomes King. One wonders how big a deal they’d make about the Coronation for him at that point. It certainly wouldn’t have the same feeling to it that apparently surrounded Elizabeth’s Coronation in 1953. (Which, coincidentally, occurred the day after the summit of Everest was reached by Edmund Hilary and Tenzing Norkay.)</p>
<p>Every day is English Heritage Day in America. Here we are, celebrating that legacy with every word we type.</p>
<p>BillyMc, why are you so anti-English? Have you ever been to Wales or Scotland? I don’t think you’d find many people there who’d agree with you when you say they’re living under English imperialism. I don’t really see a difference between what Cromwell did in Ireland and what the US did in Vietnam; or indeed the English invading Wales a millennium ago and the US’ annexation of Texas. There comes a point where we stop being apologetic for ones counties past actions, especially when they occurred centuries ago.</p>
<p>Perhaps as a nation (the English rather than the British) we aren’t particularly demonstrative. I remember visiting both the States and Canada and marveling at how many buildings both public and private flew the flag of their respective countries. Yet our Union Jack is rarely seen here on even state buildings. The only time the English flag George cross) comes out is when we’re attempting to be successful in something like the World or European cup for football. Not even cricket produces such a jingoistic response to what is always a doomed attempt at winning a major trophy. I’ve noticed the flags are coming out this week though, I guess for the wedding on Friday.</p>
<p>Perhaps its easier to recognise the cultures of the Irish, Scots and Welsh? They have leprechauns and clover and kilts and whiskey and sheep. Not sure what are archetypal images of the English? Please don’t say bowler hats, very very few wear them nowadays. The Queen? well she’s queen of many more countries than just England.</p>
<p>It can’t just be our history, the castles, the classic medieval architecture of our ancient towns, the nobility, as many European countries share that aspect. Maybe some of our cultural references, the double decker bus - only red in London, Liverpool and the Beatles? The changing of the Guard - pretty sight for tourists but very little relevance for the majority of the English who don’t live in west London. Shakespeare? </p>
<p>So what wold a St Georges day parade actually look like?</p>
<p>I’m terribly proud to be English and part of the United Kingdom. I’d love to see either of the flags flying in more places. But perhaps an earlier poster is right, our language is our presence in the world.</p>
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Ancestors who were murdered, relatives who have fought in modern times.</p>
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I do not know how people there feel about the English, but aren’t the Scottish going for independence? A lot are, at least. Anyway, if you were to go to Northern Ireland, you would find a lot of people who oppose English rule.</p>
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Except the US did not have the intent of genocide, nor did they enslave tens of thousands, nor did they try to make it part of their empire. Indeed, they came at the behest of the South Vietnamese. However, I personally think they should have opposed France from the start. Before Ho Chi Minh turned to the Soviets, he was quoting Jefferson.</p>
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Texas wanted to be a part of the US. The Britons, already invaded by the Angles and the Saxons, fought the new Anglish/English. However, in Texas vs Mexico, I would have gone for Mexico, which was the anti-slavery side.</p>
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[Hm</a>, centuries ago?](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLZhNs7M1oE]Hm”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLZhNs7M1oE)</p>
<p>[Interesting.[/url</a>] [url=<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Irish_hunger_strike]Very”>1981 Irish hunger strike - Wikipedia]Very</a> Interesting.](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)]Interesting.[/url”>Bloody Sunday (1972) - Wikipedia)</p>
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<p>Everybody has ancestors who’ve been oppressed or murdered. That’s no excuse for your lousy attitude. Half of my family are Irish catholics (from the North and South) - we’ve had our fair share of suffering too, but I’m still proud to be British.</p>
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<p>No the Scottish aren’t going for independence. What gave you that idea? The SNP party promised a referendum on independence, but every poll so far has suggested the Scottish people would vote no. I’ve been to Northern Ireland many times, my grandmother was a Northern Irish catholic and I’ve never experienced any opposition or hostility towards Britain.</p>