British Universities reputation in the US

College Search & Lists
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<p> <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/education/01scotland.html?em[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/education/01scotland.html?em&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>[The</a> Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/weekly/v53/i34/34b01201.htm]The”>http://chronicle.com/weekly/v53/i34/34b01201.htm)</p>

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<p>I realize that you aren’t really interested in the perceptions of UKsian schools in academia, but I feel that they awarded a remarkable amount of prestige by Americans (at least in the biomedical sciences). Cambridge, Oxford, University College of London are held in the same esteem as Harvard, Princeton and Yale. Whether it is warranted or not.</p>

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Definitely not for UCL!</p>

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<p>I think a lot of the prestige of St Andrews in US is due to marketing. I have a friend at Warwick and she says in UK it is considered the same or better than St Andrews, but in US it is hardly known at all.</p>

<p>On the other hand, she says that Warwick has many students from China and India and they think it is only a little bit behind Oxford and Cambridge in prestige, sort of on a level with Imperial and LSE. But Warwick does much more marketing in China and India than it does in US.</p>

<p>She was told by Warwick that overall it sees itself as a peer to schools like Duke and USC, so I would guess St Andrews would be seen in the same way there.</p>

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Warwick and UCL normally share the 5/6th spot in UK rankings. The top 6 (Oxbridge, imperial/LSE, Warwick/UCL) are somewhat like the Ivies in the US with a sizeable no. of people getting into investment banking. St. Andrew is not in there and is not as good as Warwick in Britain. </p>

<p>In fact it will be quite surprising if a Scottish school enters into the top 5 in UK, given that almost everything that’s great in Britain is done by the English. :p:</p>

<p>I’d think that attracting Chinese/Indians are quite a good long term strategy. Warwick is probably not as good as Duke overall. However sometimes I struggle to figure what is Duke famous/good for.</p>

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<p>The idea that St Andrews is not a top five university is total rubbish; they’re ranked in the top five by most of the league tables. The Times, sort of the UK equivalent to USNWR, views St Andrews as “the main rival in the UK to Oxford and Cambridge.”</p>

<p>Link: [St</a> Andrews earns a high five - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/sunday_times_university_guide/article4779421.ece)</p>

<p>Link: <a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_St_Andrews[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_St_Andrews&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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You should look across all the tables and over the years to come to a conclusion. No doubt St Andrews is a very good university, but it is definitely behind Oxbridge and Imperial/LSE. That means if St Andrews is in the top 5 it will need to be “better” than both UCL and Warwick, which I find it very doubtful. I find the idea that St Andrews is better than UCL quite inconceivable. </p>

<p>The fact that it is being called the “main rival to Oxbridge” is probably because they are both heritage universities with a long history. Imperial/LSE (almost always 3rd or 4th without fail) are just focused science and humanities colleges. UCL is a city university and Warwick is just too young.</p>

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<p>This is the Times ranking of universities in Britain in 2009, which in my opinion is the most objective criteria for undergrad purpose. </p>

<p>[University</a> Rankings League Table 2009 | Good University Guide - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php)</p>

<p>2 Cambridge<br>
1 Oxford
3 Imperial College
4 London School of Economics
6 Warwick
8 Durham
5 St Andrews
7 University College London
18 Edinburgh</p>

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<p>St Andrews has placed in or around the top five across the main tables (Times, Sunday Times, Guardian) for the past three or four years. The term “better” is difficult to define, but as far as the subject rankings are concerned comparing St Andrews to Oxbridge, Imperial, and the LSE is a mixed bag. In some subject areas, St Andrews comes out on top; in others, not so much. Again, “better” isn’t very precise, but according to the rankings St Andrews has often come out on top of Warwick and UCL. No offense, but whether you find it inconceivable does not really matter.</p>

<p>The article is quite clear. St Andrews is viewed as the main comprehensive university (both science and arts faculties) to rival Oxbridge; heritage, location, or age have nothing to do with it. Of course, in their areas of specialization, Imperial and LSE compete well with Oxbridge and St Andrews. </p>

<p>I’m not really sure why you provided the ranking out of order, but the Good University Guide (Times) is one of the best. If you follow your link, the top five are:</p>

<ol>
<li>Oxford</li>
<li>Cambridge</li>
<li>Imperial</li>
<li>LSE</li>
<li>St Andrews</li>
</ol>

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<p>A UK university that I have not heard mentioned on CC is University of Manchester. My first co-worker graduated from University of Manchester with a Phd in Engineering and I thought it’s a pretty good school for computer engineering. I believe the Turing machine was used to decode German’s messages during WW.</p>

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<p>jwagner, agree that the Times guide is probably the best ranking of British universities with the most accurate statistics. The “out of order” ranking that I’ve provided is the ranking of British universities by “Admission standards”, as measured in UCAS points (for A-levels, IB, etc) </p>

<p>[University</a> Rankings League Table 2009 | Good University Guide - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines)</p>

<ol>
<li>Cambridge 518</li>
</ol>

<h2>2. Oxford 502</h2>

<ol>
<li>Imperial 473</li>
</ol>

<h2>4. LSE 469</h2>

<ol>
<li>Warwick 448</li>
<li>Durham 447</li>
<li>St Andrews 446</li>
</ol>

<p>With a bit of push St Andrews may become the fifth, but to say that it is anywhere near Oxbridge/Imperial/LSE is quite a stretch. </p>

<p>And I’d like to inform you that entry standards are quite consistent over the years. </p>

<p>Science biased universities like Cambridge and Imperial always get hammered on criteria such as completion and good honours. It’s not unlike to saying that Caltech is worse than Georgetown because more Techers drop out and the average graduating GPA is lower.</p>

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Manchester used to be very good at computing back in the 70s (world renowned), but for whatever reasons it has dropped quite a bit in the recent years within the UK. The top computing students in the UK now go to Cambridge or Imperial. </p>

<p>I think there’s a “first computer” (not too sure about this part) on display at the Science Museum (in London) and it is donated by Uni of Manchester. </p>

<p>Manchester’s strength now lies in its business school, although even that it is not near LBS, HEC, Insead, etc.</p>

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<p>Though rankings are generally consistent, there are fluctuations. Oxbridge do tend to consistently have the highest admissions standards, but this is not necessarily true of Imperial and the LSE. For example, last year St Andrews was ranked fourth for entry standards—ahead of Imperial and well ahead of UCL.</p>

<p>Link: [University</a> Rankings League Table 2008| Good University Guide - Times Online](<a href=“http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php?sort=ENTRY]University”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines)</p>

<p>The water gets even murkier when looking at specific programs. For example, St Andrews’ IR program is ranked as one of the top three in the UK. It has entry standards just below Cambridge and significantly higher than the LSE. To say that St Andrews, based on entry standards, isn’t “anywhere near” Oxbridge, Imperial, or the LSE is untrue. In some cases St Andrews standards far exceed the other universities that you are praising.</p>

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<p>Columbia_student: A Turing machine is a thought experiment. An abstract concept of a simple symbol manipulating device. The quote is confusing it with the Turing-Welchman bombe (an actual electro-mechanical device) used to decrypt messages encrypted by the German Enigma machine.</p>

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<p>[Alan</a> Turing: codebreaker and computer pioneer: B.J. Copeland and Diane Proudfoot recall the contribution to the war effort in 1939-45 of the British computer scientist, whose death fifty years ago has recently been commemorated.(Frontline) - History](<a href=“http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-119570575.html]Alan”>http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-119570575.html)</p>

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<p>jwagner, you have a point there. I appreciate that. In the UK however, the Cambridge-Oxford | Imperial-LSE |Others hierarchy is pretty established in many people’s minds. That’s how employers target the UK universities for recruitment. I’m just alluding to that fact. </p>

<p>A graduate from St Andrews just won’t enjoy as much opportunities as a graduate from Imperial or LSE. It’s just like a grad from Georgetown will on average not have as much opportunities as a grad from Penn even though Georgetown has excellent IR/politics/government courses. </p>

<p>There are some subjects like literature that are not offered in both Imperial (only science and engineering) or LSE (humanities or social sciences). This posts another interesting situation.</p>

<p>May be I’m just plain biased against a Scottish school.</p>

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<p>With the exception of Oxbridge, how good a university is totally depends on what you are studying. That’s where British universities vary so much from American ones.</p>

<p>And don’t for a second think that getting into Harvard is more difficult than Cambridge. I’d pick the application process for the former over that of the latter any day…</p>

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<p>A thread full of so much misinformation and hate.</p>

<p>(1) St. Andrews has ranked in top 5 for 4 years now. 2009 speculative scores place it fourth.</p>

<p>(2) St. A’s reputation is hampered by the fact they accept substandard American students for monetary benefits.</p>

<p>St A’s is world class in terms of research and teaching. Full stop.</p>

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<p>Here’s the more realistic groupings of UK universities:</p>

<p>Group 1 - Oxford, Cambridge
Group 2 - LSE, Imperial
Group 3 - Warwick, UCL
Group 4 - Durham, St Andrews, Bristol, Edinburgh
Group 5 - Nottingham, Bath, York
Group 6 - Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham, Glasgow, Cardiff, King’s, Southampton, Loughborough</p>