"Bush urges Musharraf to restore democracy"

[WashDad]

<p>

@1of42

No, they’re perfectly capable of democracy. What comes out may not be as liberal as you would like, though. (<em>GASP</em> razorsharp, a liberal? the horror!)

</p>

<p>I don’t want to get involved in the “Muslim =/= democracy” argument, but…</p>

<p>The use of the word “liberal” here is in the older, sense meaning “providing liberty to individuals” rather than its modern usage as “American leftist” or, probably more accurately, “someone who identifies with the American Democratic Party.” Classic liberalism has nothing to do with the current use of the term “liberal.” HTH.</p>

[1of42]

<p>Of course, WashDad. My comment towards razorsharp was very, very, tongue-in-cheek, since razorsharp is one of the cadre of posters who often call people liberals as if the term is derogatory.</p>

<p>I’m actually acutely aware of the whole corruption of the word liberal. It disappoints me. I’m also taking a course on contemporary political liberal philosophy, and challenges to it, including those from classical political liberalism, libertarianism, republicanism, etc. Don’t worry, I’m quite aware of these things. ;)</p>

[razorsharp]

<p>

You have provided no proof to back up your assertion about Islam. Doing a quick Google search including the terms “democracy” and “Islam” brings up any number of scholarly articles and reports on why democracy and Islam can easily be compatible - including this Islam and Democracy by David Smock: Special Reports: U.S. Institute of Peace - and only one kooky argument as to why they can’t (tom demonstrate how absurd the argument is, it uses the fact that there’s no word for equality, democracy or politics as a major argument).

At least your post is getting close to an intelligent comment. This is what you should have posted the first time instead of your smart-aleck comment like this:

Go do some research, and come back when you’re ready to do something other than spout talking points.

I don’t object if you disagree with me. We can have fine discussion. But you really come across as a bully towards other posters and I wish you would watch your tone on these boards. For example, I pay more attention to what WashDad says because I don’t see a pattern of him castigating other posters. I don’t know if I always agree with him, but I definately respect him and his opinion. He is one of many posters on this board for whom I have great respect and enjoy debating.</p>

[waterlogged]

<p>Can someone please provide an example of an Islamic state which is a democracy similar to those in the West ?</p>

[1of42]

<p>razorsharp: I don’t particularly want to continue this, but just wanted to point out that you chastising me about tone is ironic, to say the least.</p>

<p>Still waiting on a legitimate response to the argument, by the way, as opposed to more bleating about how offended you are.</p>

[tlaktan]

<p>Zakaria’s statements are no less valid today than they are in 1997.</p>

<p>And your definition of democracy is skewed, razorsharp. You expect it to come with all the neat trimmings of constitutional liberties and such. You cannot deny that the Middle East is sprawling with democracies where people have a say in how their government comes to form, but these very democracies do not necessarily provide breeding ground for constitutional liberties.</p>

<p>And if Muslim democracies lead to theologically-minded governments, who are we to deny them that right? You cannot impose your ideology of constitutional liberalism on these countries because they in turn will resist. Trying to impose “democracy as you know it” on countries in North Africa and the Middle East will end in bitter opposition due to nationalist tendencies and infringement on cultural values.</p>

[1of42]

<p>waterlogged: No. But that isn’t because of Islam, that’s because of the many other cultural issues in those countries that make our kind of liberal democracy very much not an option.</p>