<p>What’s so special about the kitchen? I don’t think my contractor got a permit when we renovated our kitchen last year. I hired a master electrician and a master plumber myself to make sure the job done safely for my own sake, not for resale concern. In fact, I hired two plumbers, the second one to redo what the first did. I am not sure they got permits.</p>
<p>Seems if you hired all the right people you could have gotten some permits to go with it. If you decide to sell you’ll probably have to give a discount for that oversight. When work is done at one point, it gets “grandfathered” in at those codes–if someone else wants the permits or inspections it may have to be brought up to a higher standard code costing a lot of money (and less for you as the re-seller). There is nothing magical about the kitchen–except an overabundance of electrical and plumbing which can be costly of course.</p>
<p>I don’t even understand how someone can build an unpermitted room. My town would be all over it. I’ve known people who have put up fences and decks that they have had to tear down in the middle of the work for not getting a permit - no way they’d get away with an addition not being permitted. </p>
<p>I’m sure whatever department in my town which is responsible for permits drive around and check that any house with a dumpster and/or contractor trucks in driveway has permit in a window. </p>
<p>Our town is like emilybee’s.
Many years ago, we hired a fence company to erect a lovely picket fence on the entire perimeter of our corner lot to contain our then 2yr old son from running into traffic. Permit? What’s that??? We were young and stupid.
Town official pulled right up and stopped work until we ran down to town hall and obtained permit.</p>
<p>We live right in an actual town, perhaps its easier to work without permits in more rural areas.</p>
<p>In 1999 we renovated our kitchen and deck. We had our contractor get permits, and the proper inspection was done on the kitchen so we had a Certificate of Occupancy. When we went to sell the house in 2012, we discovered that we didn’t have a COO for the deck, and we couldn’t sell (according to the town) until we got one. Turns out that the town no longer permitted the type of supports on the deck that would have been OK in 1999. (It’s a second-floor deck.) So we had to pay to have remedial work done on the deck, at the total last minute before the sale. </p>
<p>If the person who did the renovation was a pro (or a DIYer like Mr B who knows this stuff better than a lot of “contractors” out there), I would be much less hesitant to buy the place. If the remodel was done by a novice, then it is a different issue.</p>
<p>I’m glad that we live in a municipality that does not police construction and allows certain things to be DIY, like fences and retaining walls under certain heights). We have done all our yard work and landscaping without anyone sticking their nose into our business! Codes are there to protect you, but some are beyond ridiculous (and some allow dangerous stuff, just ask me about our neighbors’ outdoor light posts). </p>
<p>You should never buy a house without a thorough inspection anyway. You might want to bring in an electrician in addition to an inspector. In a kitchen the main issues are GFI circuits, outlets every four feet (including on an island or penninsula), and big appliances like refrigerators should be on their own circuits. If any of that is missing you certainly would have grounds for a major price reduction.</p>
<p>Forgive all the typos in my post #11, it’s a wonder you could make sense of it!</p>
<p>In every place I’ve lived, a homeowner does not need to pull a permit if they do ALL the work themselves. My husband did quite a lot of the intranet wiring in our current house, working with the electrician during our remodel.</p>
<p>Here’s my advice, based on buying 13 houses over the years, some with very bad (permitted) work and some with very good (but still unpermitted) work. If you know the homeowner did the work, you have the luxury of asking him (her) exactly what work was done and how it was done and what kind of materials were used. If the homeowner didn’t do the work but contracted it out, ask how he (she) made the decision and what kind of supervision was done. </p>
<p>Distrust everything you hear. That would be true even if all the permits were in place and signed by the inspector. Have you own inspection done and be there for the inspection. Consider getting an electrician in to do a separate inspection. </p>
<p>How long has it been since the work was done? If it’s been a while and there hasn’t been a fire (and there’s no fresh paint in strange spots), it’s probably fine. </p>
<p>“Distrust everything you hear. That would be true even if all the permits were in place and signed by the inspector. Have you own inspection done and be there for the inspection. Consider getting an electrician in to do a separate inspection.”</p>
<p>What dmd said!! So true! A CofO signed by the city is not a guarantee that the house is in livable condition. I can tell you a funny story related to that which happened 14 years and 364 days ago. 
</p>
<p>Township inspection is a joke. We had a “reputable” contractor, well known in our area and expensive, to remodel a bathroom. The township inspector came and signed everything was good. I am/was a novice without much knowledge and was looking over closely to find out that they put in my iron claw feet tub on plywood instead of mortar bed as drawn in the plan. I got a civil engineer to go through the construction and ran down to the township to have the contractor redo. It didn’t meet the minimum township code the way they installed it. I wasn’t interested in township code/permit. I didn’t want that heavy thing to fall on my head whatever the inspector’s opinion may be.</p>
<p>Noting that around Boston, most work done hasn’t been permitted and/or is out of code now. Much is archaic, as in the knob & tube wiring that nearly every older home has around here. They don’t force you to upgrade all the wiring if you are doing a small project so the wiring can be fine in one area, substandard in another. If people worried that much about the quality of wiring and plumbing, I don’t see it in the sales figures.</p>
<p>I know for a fact that the guest house across the street from me is not permitted. It is the garage conversion of t he original house. They were suppose to tear it down but never did. Instead they updated the exterior to match the giant house they built. House was for sale for over a year and just closed escrow. The guest house was not listed in the listing as square footage. I wish someone would come and make them rip it out since it would improve my ocean view but it’s not happening.</p>
<p>You can have legal non-conforming to current code. The first thing we did when we moved into our current house was redo all the wiring.</p>
<p>Here a homeowner can act as their own contractor, but they still have to get a licensed plumber and a licensed electrician. I’ve gotten very cross with a few city inspectors who missed the handrails on the deck stairs. The owner didn’t care, the contractor saved money by not putting them in, but who is going to get sued when someone falls down those stairs?</p>
<p>Funny story, I’m currently putting an addition on my house and we had our plumbing inspection on the last day of the inspector. (Everyone has been waiting for years for him to retire because he’s so picky.) They hadn’t yet put a door into the new space so you had to climb through a window to get to the plumbing. He took one look at the window and said no thanks! You pass. Luckily I’m pretty sure my guys didn’t do anything they shouldn’t.</p>
<p>That’s more like what our township inspectors do. They seem to spend less than 10 minutes and sign off. In my bath tub installation, the negligence was so obvious. An independent contractor took 2 seconds to declare a shoddy job. When I went down to the township, the inspector standing next to his supervisor denied there’s anything wrong with the contruction. I produced the engineers’ report. By then 3 civil engineers took a look and came up with the same conclusion. The township immediately produced a transfer of the permit for me to find another contractor without delay if I wanted to. Bureaucracy and construction don’t mix.</p>
<p>Almost all small work in the entire Boston area (and all of NE) is not permitted. This is true whether it’s a homeowner or professional. I’ve been surprised, for example, that when 2 new gas furnaces were installed, there was no inspection at all (though I contracted for one). On some occasions, a contractor will get a permit for a gas hookup, but sometimes not. I mention this because that’s the single most important item from a public safety perspective. </p>
<p>Another is that electricians aren’t supposed to break the seal on the main electrical connection without a permit. But they do. Or they’ll say, “It was already broken so …” </p>
<p>I find this odd here in this town because this isn’t such a large place that work would take forever to inspect. It’s much more understandable in Boston itself (or a place like NYC). But contractors don’t want to wait. They want to get paid and do the next job, which is extremely understandable. </p>
<p>Funny thing. On larger projects, I really want the contractor to get a permit. I then usually forget about the thing, which is stuck in a window visible from the street but not visible to me inside. One time, I found a building inspector standing in my living room - came in the back - because he’d seen the permit and wanted to know what the work was … and it was from 2 years earlier. Oops. </p>
<p>Hi dstark,
Sorry I am late to the party here. I tried to post yesterday but it didn’t work from my mobile device.</p>
<p>I am pretty sure that your D’s target area is a ‘Seller’s Market’ for trying to buy a home. There are probably multiple offers on anything that is decent and priced right. Also, there are many real estate markets (mine for example) where there is unpermitted work. Most buyers cannot get too picky about this type of stuff unless they are willing to pay a premium to make sure everything is perfect. Buyers will encounter the situation a lot during their search.</p>
<p>I am just giving advice as someone who does a lot of remodeling and selling homes. Everyone’s comfort level is different. Here are some general guidelines:</p>
<p>1) If the unpermitted work is for a square foot addition of any type or a raised deck above 36" from ground, this is a serious concern. Raised decks have to be done absolutely perfect for safety reasons. Unpermitted additions will cause problems down the road for your D because the square feet cannot be included in a bank appraisal (to get a loan) or a real estate listing. Limits the resale value of the home. Bank appraisers could care less about remodel work.</p>
<p>2) If the house is raised foundation and there is adequate crawl space you can inspect the majority of the important work completed. Hire an electrical and plumbing specialist to crawl under the house and look at the drain pipes, water pipes, HVAC and electrical. Make sure they go into the attic to check if there is any electrical. Have them check the venting of the kitchen and baths through the attic(important, most inspectors miss this). If the inspector is good and they can qualify that the work was done in a professional and safe manner, you can be pretty sure that the wires behind the walls and the plumbing behind the walls are OK.</p>
<p>3) For a kitchen remodel, there really isn’t too much plumbing that is hidden behind the walls. Most kitchens just have the kitchen sink and drain system (and dishwasher or refrigerator water hookups). Dishwasher and water hookups could be butchered by anyone - no permits needed to hook up a new appliance. And, most homeowners don’t move the kitchen sink location when they do a remodel. Look under the kitchen sink to inspect the quality of the drain system and dishwasher hookup. Pull out the refrigerator to check quality of refrigerator water line. Open up a couple of outlets in the kitchen to inspect quality of wiring. The most important thing about kitchens is that there are GFCI protected outlets and enough circuits on the main electrical panel to handle the load of appliances.</p>
<p>4) Bathroom remodels are more complex - things can get very serious behind the tile of a shower or bathtub. Get the inspector under the house to carefully inspect these areas. If you can, pop off the shower/bathtub valve handle cover and look at the valve plumbing. Ask specific questions to the Seller on what type of shower pan was installed. Once again, a permit is not required to change shower fixtures (valves in wall) or to re-tile a shower. That could be butchered by anyone through the years. For example, I just opened up a master shower in a home that was new construction 15 years ago with full permits. There had been leaking under the shower that rotted the wood framing (even scarier… this was on 2nd floor and could have caved in) and mold was present. None of this was visible to the homeowner. Permits do not guarantee anything.</p>
<p>5) If the house is a ‘slab’ foundation and the water and drain lines are in the concrete floor, this is very difficult to inspect and I cannot imagine that a homeowner attempted to jack hammer their foundation to change plumbing in a kitchen remodel. Normally, the electrical in a slab house is running through the attic and can be inspected - unless it is a 2 story house and then it is running between floors and you have to open the ceiling to do inspections.</p>
<p>So, my personal opinion is that a knowledgeable home buyer can do a thorough inspection of an unpermitted remodel. Do not be scared, let the other buyers get scared and then you might get your dream home in your budget. Just pick the right team to help with inspections. For example, the real estate agent might recommend ‘Joe’ and general home inspector. You might want to hire a couple of extra specialists in plumbing or electrical to do a more detailed check.</p>
<p>Coralbrook, thanks very much. I appreciate. I read your thread. </p>
<p>Thanks to the other posters too.</p>
<p>I thought of coralbrook the instant I read the title of this thread! I’ve saved the inspection advice - it will sure come in handy!</p>
<p>I wonder what will happen with a house that started off 54 years ago as a tiny one bedroom, one bathroom house. This house has been expanded on all sides, two stories and a basement added, with all the subsequent wiring and plumbing involved. No heat except for a couple of space heaters, so no furnace, approximately 4000 sq ft.</p>
<p>Since this house will be impossible to get up to code, and all the things that people want nowadays, like more than one bathroom, and heat…that it would have to be sold at a discounted price, as is. It would be a waste to level it, because it seems to be fairly well built construction.</p>
<p>busdriver, the house you are describing needs to be purchased knowing that you will be doing a lot of work. If all of the additional work was unpermitted, that would be a nightmare. It is very dangerous to add a 2nd story without reinforcing the foundation of the original house. Also, the basement was probably there to begin with.</p>
<p>I think you are referring to the fact that the large house is older. I am assuming that the 2nd story and expansions were done with a permit. You can determine if the 2nd story and expansions are permitted by looking at the County property tax records (which should be available online), or real estate listings (that should have a link to title insurance data which the title companies get from the County records). </p>
<p>The house you described sounds like a real mess if all the additions were not permitted.</p>