The one I made about the Catholic wedding? I was agreeing with your analogy; if a baker can refuse to bake a same-sex wedding cake on religious grounds, then s/he should be able to refuse to bake a Catholic divorcee’s second wedding cake on religious grounds. I see those two scenarios as consistent.
Baking a wedding cake vs. religious official marrying a couple in the official"s church, temple, mosque, etc…Really not analogous.
Employee at City Hall refusing a wedding license is more analogous.
eta; In our rural community a Minister refused to marry the couple down the road because they were living together and had been for some time. Since his church supported him, they had no recourse.
Who cares how much time is spent between the baker and the couple!!!?? The point is, if they don’t have to provide this product to those who don’t align with their religious or other discriminatory beliefs, where does it end? Do they not have to provide cakes to people who marry interracially? To people who marry their mistress they had an affair with? To people whose religions are at odds with their own religion? To allow them to do so would be supporting discrimination.
A baker can “get involved with the wedding couple” in a business transaction without supporting and condoning their marriage. Imagine if a business owner was allowed to just do business with those he likes but not sell to those who hold beliefs they don’t share.
@rhandco I do not see how the links you provided in post 19 are relevant AT ALL. In fact, the first link says that your wedding day is a special day and to relax and enjoy it. What is so enjoyable if the baker refuses to make you a cake based on your same sex marriage? That is not a positive experience.
Does the government require religious officiants to marry couples of every faith? Not that I know of.
Not analogous because the City Hall employee works for the government.
Jesus makes refreshments for a wedding, so I think baking the cake is Christ-like. jmho.
Has there ever been a case of any individual forced to marry any couple?
cross-posted with Bay
No. The halal butcher will not handle pork at all, for anyone. But the halal butcher would sell beef to Christians or atheists or (non-observers of kashrut) Jews or (non-observant of the beef ban) Hindus etc etc etc. For the bakery to act in an equivalent way, they would need to stop selling wedding cakes to anyone.
Some landlords in years gone by would refuse to rent to unmarried couples, seeing it as condoning religiously unacceptable behavior. I believe that was struck down by the courts.
See below. And by the way, people did and still do use religious beliefs as a reason to discriminate against people of other races and ethnic backgrounds
Federal and state laws prohibit discrimination against certain protected groups in businesses and places that are considered “public accommodations.” The definition of a “public accommodation” may vary depending upon the law at issue (i.e. federal or state), and the type of discrimination involved (i.e. race discrimination or disability discrimination). Generally speaking, it may help to think of public accommodations as most (but not all) businesses or buildings that are open to (or offer services to) the general public. More specifically, the definition of a “public accommodation” can be broken down into two types of businesses / facilities:
Government-owned/operated facilities, services, and buildings
Privately-owned/operated businesses, services, and buildings
Government-owned/operated facilities and services. Government-owned facilities include courthouses, jails, hospitals, parks, and other places owned and operated by federal, state and local government. Government-operated services, programs, or activities provided by federal, state, or local governments include transportation systems and government benefits programs (such as welfare assistance).
Privately-owned/operated businesses and buildings. Privately-owned businesses and facilities that offer certain goods or services to the public – including food, lodging, gasoline, and entertainment – are considered public accommodations for purposes of federal and state anti-discrimination laws. For purposes of disability discrimination, the definition of a “public accommodation” is even more broad, encompassing most businesses that are open to the public (regardless of type).
Laws Prohibiting Discrimination in Public Accommodations: Race, Color, Religion, and National Origin
Federal law prohibits public accommodations from discriminating on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin. If you think that you have been discriminated against in using such a facility, you may file a complaint with the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice, or with the United States attorney in your area. You may also file suit in the U.S. district court.
There are also state laws that broadly prohibit discrimination on the bases of race, color, religion, and national origin in places of public accommodation. To determine whether your state has such a law, you should contact your state or local human rights agency, your state attorney general’s office, or speak to a Civil Rights attorney in your area.
"Who cares how much time is spent between the baker and the couple!!!?? "
I do. If you go into a store and buy something, that is one thing. If you are forced to fraternize with people who violate your religious beliefs, just “to be fair”, that’s another.
Do you not get that a single purchase of a product is different than purchasing multiple services as well as that product? Including delivery to a venue? To me, that makes a lot of difference.
This can be extrapolated to wedding bands and DJs - can they refuse to play at a wedding if their religious beliefs go against those of the people being married? Or what about a wedding where the bride is pregnant, when your religion forbids premarital sex?
There are so many cases, and unless there is a complete abrogation of religious rights once you own a business, I don’t see how these issues won’t keep arising again and again.
If you’re a public accommodation, you’ve got to serve the public. (Churches are not public accommodations. Bakeries are, unless they’re church operated bakeries.)
I think this exactly comes back to the same tired excuses people used on interracial marriage and outright racial discrimination. Over and over again there was testimony about religious beliefs, and these practices being contrary to strongly held religious beliefs. It didn’t fly.
Should a baker be able to refuse baking a wedding cake for an interracial couple? How is that different than a refusal to a gay couple?
The baker can choose to get out of the wedding cake business entirely. I don’t believe he/she can choose to discriminate against customers based on them being gay.
If the bakers don’t have a shop front and only do private catering, do they get to choose their customers? Is that legal?
" Some landlords in years gone by would refuse to rent to unmarried couples, seeing it as condoning religiously unacceptable behavior. I believe that was struck down by the courts."
And colleges continually violate that, because “alumni and parents would be up in arms if we allowed opposite-sex couples to room together”. Why is it okay for colleges (many of who get Federal aid) to violate that mandate, even without religious grounds?
We were discriminated against because we were straight. Coincidentally, we did find a place off-campus that had a gay manager who treated us just like a gay couple, and rented us a one-bedroom apartment.
I think Rhandco’s band example is a good one and I wonder about that. Because a baker will provide a product (and could decide for any or every customer to do everything online or by selecting a picture and no further personalization), but a musician is providing not just his service but his body, his presence, his association. I am curious what you all think in that situation.
Don’t musicians get to turn down job offers without any explanation? Can they be compelled to play? I think this relates back to my private catering questions. I know how it works IRL but don’t know the legal answer.
There’s a reason we have Civil Rights laws, @rhandco – and the refusal to serve same-sex couples is no difference than the bigotry that kept black people from using white people’s drinking fountains, mixed race couples from marrying, and women from taking certain jobs.
The, “It’s okay to be a bigot because I’m just following my religious beliefs,” is not a successful strategy. At least, it shouldn’t be.
(I am hoping that the county clerk who is refusing to issue the same sex marriage licenses in Kentucky gets tossed into jail on a contempt of court charge for a good long time. That probably makes me a very mean person, but I am truly tired of bigotry masquerading as religious rights.)
From the opposite side of the transaction, while I understand that it is a matter of asserting a legal right, I wouldn’t want to enrich a bigot.
I think anyone can refuse for no reason at all, but the question is whether they can refuse a specific group for religious reasons. The difference, though, is that a musician has to be present in the company of the person.
Did anyone read about the case of a jeweler who made wedding bands for a same sex couple, but made disapproval very clear? The couple then demanded a refund and opened a campaign of harassment against the jeweler. I thought that was interesting, as well.
"Why is it okay for colleges (many of who get Federal aid) to violate that mandate, even without religious grounds?
We were discriminated against because we were straight. Coincidentally, we did find a place off-campus that had a gay manager who treated us just like a gay couple, and rented us a one-bedroom apartment."
Why didn’t you take the college to court?
A lot of colleges now have gender neutral rooms. Anyone can room with anyone else.
However, the colleges do provide everyone they charge for room and board with a dorm room - which is all they are legally obligated to do. I don’t believe there is any law that says a college has to allow you to room with a specific person.
“My point is that it is not just “baking a cake”. Everyone I know who had a wedding cake baked for them did not order it in one step and pick it up in one step. It is a process where the baker gets involved with the couple - wedding cakes could be over a thousand dollars.”
Sorry, but it is just baking a cake and it’s not in any way shape or form part of the wedding ceremony. It’s a dessert, nothing more, nothing less.
“There are so many cases, and unless there is a complete abrogation of religious rights once you own a business, I don’t see how these issues won’t keep arising again and again.”
And they will keep getting struck down by the courts. People want to waste their money, fine by me.
Apparently, one of the primary arguments against interracial marriage was that “god separated the races, so he doesn’t mean for them to be reproducing together”.
rhandco, how is not baking someone a cake practicing a religion? Is that some kind of religious ritual or service? {What do you do at your church, Emily? - Well we bring mixers, flour, sugar, and eggs, then we don’t make cakes with them.}