<p>A brief glimpse of life at Richmond High:
</a> I find it ironic that a parent who gets perturbed enough to post online asking for help because a private school teacher makes a mildly hurtful remark to her son (<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=184275&page=1[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=184275&page=1</a>) can be so judgmental about what kids who dodge bullets on their way to school ought to be able to accomplish.
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<p>Echoing what Calmom said, I work at a college where quite a few full professors are non-native English speakers. Even though they got their Ph.D’s in the US, many write really awful English grammar. I work with one brilliant science prof whose handouts to his class are riddled with errors, mostly articles and verb endings (bane of ESL.) A US university granted him a doctorate, yet I’m not sure he’d pass a grammar test.</p>
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<p>There are states sueing the federal government over No Child Left Behind. <a href=“http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0819/p03s01-legn.html[/url]”>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0819/p03s01-legn.html</a> In the last six years, the elementary school where I teach has received every state and national award possible, and if our scores don’t go up even more this year, we will be in the first step of “Program Improvement” with No Child Left.</p>
<p>calmom:</p>
<p>I know that all these kids are not “dodging bullets” - don’t exagerate. I used to teach a summer class just for them – and that school was no where near any “bullets flying”. If kids are spending 12 years in the school system then they should be expected to be able to write and do math at a 7th-10th grade level. </p>
<p>By the way, even if there are kids that are “dodging bullets” to go to school, that still doesn’t justify giving a diploma when VERY BASIC standards haven’t been met. I also know that the majority of Californians are on my side; they don’t want diplomas handed out as some kind of “party favor” at the end of 12th grade. Diplomas are not a “thank you for coming”!!!</p>
<p>BTW – rarely are there ANY bullets flying when kids are on the way to school – gang members do not get up that early since they routinely “sleep in”. The cops know this, too. (Since I worked in e Inglewood and Hawthorne, I can attest to that fact!) The answer to any “dodging bullets” issue is not to simply hand out a diploma - it makes the diploma meaningless. </p>
<p>And, if you read my post thoroughly, I wasn’t so much as “judging” the kids, I was judging the parents who have not instilled a “school ethic” into their kids.</p>
<p>testing is a real bugaboo with me- particually statements that blame the parents because they don’t “care”</p>
<p>My oldest daughter was in private school K-12, even though we are a lowish middle income blue collar family- because she is gifted with learning disabilities and the public school system told us that they would not be able to help her with either of those concerns- you are either “gifted” or “learning disabled” not both.</p>
<p>She didn’t have to be tested, because her school went through a PNAIS self assessment every three years or so, where the school was critiqued not the students. I take that back she did take the SAT when she was in 7th gd & participated in the Johns Hopkins CTY program.</p>
<p>My younger daughter has more severe learning differences, but is also very bright, she is dyslexic, but while I had taken her to have psychological testing, noone diagnosed her as such, nor suggestted how she might best learn.
She was also in private school, but only until 3rd grade, when I transferred her to public school in the hopes that they would be able to teach her to read.She did learn to read, but the standards were very low, and she did more work in 3rd grade, than she did in 4th. In 5th grade her teacher took personal leave so her class was taught by a series of substitutes, and they did minimal work all year. I was in the school nearly every day, running book groups and other volunteer duties in an effort to get this class some focus.</p>
<p>Although she was supposed to have an hr pullout in the resource room everyday-she couldn’t tell time, so she didn’t go, neither the resource teacher or the string of subs found reminding her a priority.
Her math teacher in middle school, was the same teacher that she had for 4th gd that had a low bar for everyone. Needless to say she didn’t learn much in that class, so I hired an outside math tutor to help her despite the expense.</p>
<p>Going to the series of teachers/principals- district didn’t change anything, despite that they should have taken me seriously because I was parent group chair and had quit my job to be a support for the students and staff in the school.
She failed the 4th & 7th grade state required tests- no teacher suggested she get extra help in summer- to the contrary, they said that it wasn’t indicative of her skill level.
( two years she did summer school- one was a private summer school for dyslexic kids- that was very expensive and one year was the district summer school that was a waste of time-I couldn’t find any program out there that was appropriate and that we could afford)</p>
<p>She changed schools for 9th grade, and while I had taken her off of her IEP and resource room, as it was obviously a waste of time, her school provided extra support to help her catch up to her peers, a mighty task, since she was now attending school with the top students in the state, and there was much that she had never learned.</p>
<p>While in 10th grade, she still is behind in math, through extra hard work, she is almost caught up and will take a math course this summer to continue the level of science she is interested in.</p>
<p>She is taking AP Euro and a Marine Science class, that is easily as rigorous as a college course, while volunteering and participating in school sports.
She is not unusual, she has many friends in her remedial math course, who are also in her more difficult courses.
It is not fair to lump all students who have difficulty with state administered tests as students who “don’t care”.It is also not fair to expect the high schools to help all these students catch up to where they should be, just because their elementary and middle schools didn’t prepare them.</p>
<p>High schools are not given the resources to do so, at least not in my district. MIddle and elementary schools are given more money per child, have smaller class sizes, and often have more parent involvement, not every school has the dedication of teachers who make themselves available like D current school does.</p>
<p>The most experienced teachers often have their pick of schools, and go to schools with more support from the community, which are generally in wealthier neighborhoods.
The students who most need teachers with experience, the students who don’t have a lot of support at home, whose parents dont expect to have to pay for outside tutoring, those students get teachers with less seniority and experience, and it is reflected in test scores</p>
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<p>Because then even fewer kids would pass it, and the howls about how unfair it is to expect high school students to have learned anything would be even louder. The bar is set embarassingly low to allow as many to pass as possible and yet at the same time to try to endow a California high school diploma with at least a bare minimum of meaning and respectability.</p>
<p>Thi is embarrassing. Not that 10% can’t pass, but that an exit exam is somehow “unfair” - as if it’s their “right” to get a diploma, no matter whether they’ve learned what they were supposed to or not.</p>
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<p>The problem with your comment: they’re not trying to get their diplomas in Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America; if they were, I’d bet they don’t make allowances for non-Spanish speakers there, either. </p>
<p>What exactly DOES a diploma mean, if you don’t have to have any proficiency in English or math?</p>
<p>“I also know that the majority of Californians are on my side…”</p>
<p>Here’s one Californian who’s not.</p>
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<p>As I said earlier, a diploma has become a “Thank you for coming” souvenir.</p>
<p>I know that some think that they are being “kind” because they support giving diplomas to those who haven’t met the most basic (lowered) standards. That is not kind – it is short-sighted. If we are to truly prepare kids for a high tech global economy then they need to know that they need to meet basic skills to get a diploma.</p>
<p>I certainly do not think we should allow students to graduate without rudimentary skills- I work with ESL students who stay in the districts ESL program just a few months before they are sent to the high schools, with only about a 1st- 3rd grade English reading level.
This is ridiculous- so the parents have raised money to pay for reading instructors to train volunteer tutors.
But I also realize, not every school feels that responsibility, as a community we have to demand that schools and districts are held accountable to educate these kids- it is really doing them a disservice, if we just keep pushing them along with out helping them.</p>
<p>my quote: “I also know that the majority of Californians are on my side…”</p>
<p>pamavisions quote: 'Here’s one Californian who’s not."</p>
<p>So… pamavision (and others who think diplomas should still be passed out)…</p>
<p>If it is “too much” to expect 7th - 10th grade competency in basic skills in order to receive a high school (12 grade!) diploma, is there ANY level that you would insist that would need to be met??? </p>
<p>So… what would that minimum level be??? </p>
<p>6th grade? (If you can document that “bullets fly” in your school zone.)</p>
<p>4th grade? (If you have only been in the US for 10 years or less)</p>
<p>3rd grade? (If you have only been in the US for 6 years or less)</p>
<p>1st grade? (If you have only been in the US during your high school years)</p>
<p>Lower? (this is getting too foolish to continue…)</p>
<p>What minimum grade level of competency in math, reading & writing should a high school graduate have in California (or anywhere, for that matter?)</p>
<p>Actually, there are probably many kids who have taken 3 or 4 years of Spanish in high school that could pass the test in Spanish!</p>
<p>but, that is beside the point… These are American schools and they are taught in English. If your child was going to school in Mexico, he/she would be expected to learn proper Spanish and pass tests in Spanish. </p>
<p>Other countries must be laughing hysterically at us.</p>
<p>Frankly, I would have no problem if non English speakers, when they first arrive at our schools, are put in a one year intensive English Immersion instruction program (that is not a grade). At that time, no “regular classes” are taught – except basic math & writing (no PE, no Social Science, etc). Then, after one year, the kid goes into his regular grade. If this means that these kids end up going to an extra year of school – so what? At least they will be fluent in English and be able to proudly earn their diplomas.</p>
<p>Wow! I feel so terribly for these students and for many of the teachers trying hard to make a difference. Diploma or not, what will these students do after graduation with such poor skills?</p>
<p>Jlauer–my answer to your challenge–if they have passed the classes. Wasn’t that always what school was supposed to be about?</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>that is not an anwer. Standardized testing has long exposed that some schools give “passing grades” to kids who are not proficient in order to hide the kid’s or the school’s deficiencies.</p>
<p>We can’t just “trust” a grade given out by a class. That is why we have SAT tests, AP exams, ACT tests, etc. That is why we have such things as “Bar Exams”. We don’t just let people pass their law school classes and join the bar – because then law schools wouldn’t have the incentive to do a great job teaching. Law students (and others) have to demonstrate a certain level of proficiency. </p>
<p>Again, when a standardized test is given to measure whether a certain grade level proficiency has been met, WHAT GRADE LEVEL should a graduating 12th grader be able to demonstrate???</p>
<p>I wonder how many parents are thinking… “I don’t want the schools to just give out diplomas to those who can’t read, write or do math at such low grade levels because then I can’t INSIST that my kids study and practice in order to pass the test.”</p>
<p>but I see where garland is coming from- if standardized testing has “exposed” the deficiencies, in the classroom, how is more standardized testing going to help those students learn what they need to learn?</p>
<p>What about testing the teachers? what about developing curriculum that isn’t at the mercy of school boards who don’t want to offend anyone ( and so teach nothing)
What about giving teachers and parents more control over what is taught in schools
OMG- could I be talkign about charter schools?</p>
<p>emerald: A standardized test is like a blood test. It doesn’t correct the problem, it identifies the problem – according to established baselines. We don’t get rid of blood tests just because they don’t improve people’s blood.</p>
<p>Since kids start taking the “exit exam” long before they are seniors, the weaknesses are then identified and should be corrected. I don’t blame the schools; I blame the parents (and the kids, if they have an “I don’t give a XXXX” attitude").</p>
<p>emerald >>>> What about testing the teachers? <<<<</p>
<p>Emerald, my dear friend, you don’t want to “go there” – even on this board. You’ll have the CC Faculty calling you every name in the book if you suggest that.</p>
<p>A standardized test is not science. A bad question yields a bad result. I have seen too much bad assessment to think it’s a magic cure like so many believe right now.</p>