Not sure what you mean, or why Harvard’s admissions practices and the lawsuit is relevant.
Source, other than your opinion?
Also, among the small number of AB 540 students at UC with potentially undocumented immigration status, there are about as many who are Asian as there are who are Latino.
A lawsuit is a set of allegations, not fact. Whether relevant or not, it can’t and doesn’t “prove” prove anything until there is a trial and a judgment rendered.
It’s evidence of how Harvard does holistic admissions…or please explain the difference in racial makeup between UCB and Stanford, where one is unable to use race in admissions and the other can but then they both use “holistic” admission process.
Source is this year’s admissions results. Probably more reliable than your ever-present refrain that UC can do no wrong. UC does and UC has. The difference between you as an alumnus and me as an alumna is that, while loyal, I am nevertheless able to be objective about my Alma Mater’s evolution from a mix of great and imperfect to a mix of great and quite imperfect. I’m not a PR spokesperson – paid or volunteer.
Only 33 percent of Stanford undergrads come from California, less than half that at Berkeley. And California has a very different racial makeup than the US overall.
I don’t follow that explanation at all you don’t even mention “holistic” in your comment, in fact it seems to bolster the fact that holistic for most colleges includes race. Take race out of the equation through a constitutional amendment and the numbers change drastically.
No, CU123, the existence of a lawsuit is not “evidence”. It is merely an allegation.
The allegations need to be followed up by evidence presented in a court of law. The plaintiff has the burden of producing evidence to back up allegations made in their complaint. The defendant in a case has an opportunity to present their own evidence to counter the assertions or claims made by the plaintiff. A judge or jury will make a determination of fact, based on consideration of all the evidence.
@epiphany
I personally disagree that there’s much gaming of the personal hardships to get an unfair advantage. I do not think that any student is getting in with an anxiety hardship, or a depression one, or really any student who uses these hardships as a crutch I see this on cc all the time—a student desperately trying for UCB despite the anxiety/depression related C-average. That happens and people try, but it doesn’t work.
The people I know personally who I feel benefited from personal hardship were someone I know who had a 4.8w, a solid SAT but a total lack of ECs because of a parent with severe mental illness and a parent with MS. Another had a 4.2w, a decent SAT, but had overcome extreme drug related hardship by age 18. Same with the ECs. They were L&S admits.
For UCB transfers, it’s the same sort of deal. Though I notice a lot less so than Stanford and other elite transfer hopefuls.
I think the bar is much higher than just a hardship, and I do not think that anyone can get in with a “because” in their personal life (“I got a B minus in pre-calc because I’m depressed…”) but rather a despite (“I got an A in AP Lit despite my dad losing the ability to walk”)
Of course, I could just Know extraordinary people. But coming from the east bay, I know a lot of people who applied to Berkeley with varied success.
Depends on how widespread it is (which we will never know).
No, but they can be a sucker for a good story, and since overcoming adversity is a plus factor… (But, don’t forget, UC campuses hire application readers, such as HS counselors, not Admissions Officers to cull the herd.)
@CU123 I must admit I chuckled at your suggestion that there be a constitutional amendment to take race out of admissions. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to amend the constitution? It is doubtful any amendment would be entertained that would focus just on university admissions. Moreover, the US Constitution has several articles banning racial discrimination and these have proven ineffective in putting an end its practice.
@bluebayou Good stories don’t cut it. There needs to be verification and validation from other sources. Many students submit sob stories of why their grades aren’t good. That is very different from the foster child who has overcome great adversity; the child who has a dip in grades because of cancer etc. In these cases, the “facts” will be verified via school and counsellor reports etc. It’s not as easy as you imply.
@exlibris97, it’s not accurate that there’s verification of stories, at least for the UCs. UCLA, with more than 113,000 applicants, had 452,000 personal insight questions to read–and with no letters of recommendations from counselors, there’s no verification whatsoever (obviously there would be verification of a foster child in the system, but that’s not the type of gaming that’s going on.) Counselors at public high schools in California typically have 500+ students assigned to them, and most don’t even read students’ essays. I heard one verified story of egregious gaming of the system this year–with the student getting into some major schools with outright lies in her essays hardship. And if a student is claiming hardship related to personal family matters, a school often wouldn’t be aware of them or whether they’re true or not.
As @bluebayou said, we have no way of determining how widespread this is, but it’s naive to think this is an area that’s not being gamed. Colleges have made no secret of wanting kids who overcome adversity–and some exploit that by outright lying in their essays.
Guidance counselors never see the UC app.
@exlibris97 you do realize that states have constitutions too???
Proposition 209 amended the ** California State Constitution** to prohibit the state, local governments, districts, public universities, colleges, and schools, and other government instrumentalities from discriminating against or giving preferential treatment to any individual or group in public employment, public education, or public contracting on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin.
There have been a number of attempts to amend prop 209. It is only a matter of time before it is changed
It is only a matter of time before it is changed"
in a state as ethnically diverse as Calif?? I dont THINK so.
you DO realize that Caucasians are now a minority race in Calif, correct?.
NO chance that 209 will ever be changed. And it shouldn’t be.
I’m sure there are cases of people gaming the system and lying and doing the wrong thing. But it’s not worth loosing sleep over. People will always do the wrong thing. The important thing is that you teach YOUR child to do the right thing and not lie on their college applications. Constantly worrying about other people and getting bitter doesn’t help anything. It is too bad that high achieving kids are being shut out of UCLA, Berkeley, and other schools, because an instate public that is so prestigious is a pretty good deal! Maybe they need more UC schools, but where would they be??
UCB and UCLA are small relative to the state population, compared to state flagships in other states. That makes them more competitive for admission.
Perhaps if the UC system, instead of adding more campuses to accommodate growth in the 1950s-present, expanded the then-existing campuses (UCB, UCD, UCLA) to 60,000 undergraduates each today, they would be easier to get into (more comparable to state flagships in other states), and students who only got into the “third best” campus would not feel as bad as those who today think that getting into the “eighth or ninth best” campus is an indication of inadequacy.
Honestly, I think making the schools bigger would dilute them…bigger is not always better.
UCLA and UCB already have housing issues and campus size is limited due to the areas they are in.
If by “dilute” you mean make less selective, that would be true. And it would probably result in people thinking that they are not “prestigious” enough (since “prestige” is closely tied to selectivity). Of course, that is the opposite of what people are complaining about now – they want the selectivity-based “prestige”, but are not satisfied when the campus is too selective for they themselves to get admitted to.
But then it is not unusual to find students on these forums who think that any college that is not a reach for them is somehow “beneath” them.