<p>I’m pretty sure that an Orthodox Jewish private school would not accept federal or state funding, which means that it is free to make up its own rules.</p>
<p>It also can’t be accused of discrimination because it is adhering to its religious code of ethics. Ethics that may seem wrong to those on the outside, but that have worked for well over 5000 years for most of its followers.</p>
<p>The OP is going to have to make some very serious decisions about the meaning of community, much like many Orthodox, Amish, and Islamic youth have had to make. Is her career choice more important than family and friends and worshipping community? Is there some way to balance career and relationships?</p>
<p>Point well taken about giving advice to a teen. If it were my own teen, I’m sure I’d be saying - - just hang in there until you graduate. I withdraw my suggestion - - don’t call the ACLU. </p>
<p>I let the part of me who thinks the OP is completely justified in her viewpoint take over. And I still think the OP is justified. </p>
<p>And for the adults, I do think local media would totally be interested in writing about this - - it’s got a good and somewhat unique human interest angle.</p>
<p>p.s. have to admit I thought she was a college student until reading a lot further . . .so not only need to be cognizant of who is being advised but need to read all the posts first.</p>
<p>Except in the case of an older teen who has almost, but not quite, attained her majority, and is therefore still subject to the direction of her parents and teachers, I don’t see who is being harmed. (And with no disrespect intended to laughaholic or her predicament, I hope this is the worst hurdle she faces as she makes the transition from childhood to independence. If so, it won’t have been that bad an adolescence.)</p>
<p>People are free to affiliate with a religion that operates this way, and they are equally free not to. </p>
<p>Nobody has said, for example, that you can’t be an EMT, SoCalDad.</p>
<p>And I have told my teenager she can’t get a tattoo–not because I have a religious objection, but because I do not care for tattoos, and while she is a minor, it’s my prerogative to tell her so. When she’s on her own, I won’t be able to stop her from getting one of she chooses to.</p>
<p>It is perfect possible to respect someone’s right to hold religious beliefs, without respecting the beliefs themselves. In polite society, most of the time one simply keeps one’s mouth shut about it.</p>
<p>The point at which those beliefs begin to impinge on the lives of others who don’t buy into them is the point at which one really must speak up. The ultra-orthodox community in NY, for example, that years ago wanted the female bus drivers who drove their many children to school fired because their boys couldn’t ride in a vehicle with an unrelated female, even if she were an adult doing her job. They were, of course, happy to have the public school system shoulder the financial burden of transporting their kids. :rolleyes: IIRC, they lost that one.</p>
<p>Silly me! I thought the OP was a college senior.</p>
<p>As a high school senior, I say…drop the ambulance volunteering for now. Graduate from high school. Hopefully you are looking at colleges that are more diverse than your high school. If so, you will be able to be an EMT there.</p>
<p>Hi, guys!
I am also an Orthodox girl and I go to a school similar to Laughaholic’s (we’ve PMed).
From what she’s told me, though, my school is a lot more chilled than hers is- I don’t think anyone’s ever tried to become an EMT during school, but I don’t believe that they’d get expelled (could be wrong, but honestly, I really don’t want to know if so). (Actually, they sent a girl to Harvard recently, which is pretty darn progressive around here…)
First of all, Laughaholic, I’d suggest dropping it unless you don’t mind getting your GED. If you have younger siblings, you don’t want to blow it for them, and you may as well finish out the year. Frustrating, I know, but in ten months you’ll be out :). It’s really not worth it making this all into a scene. Once you’ve graduated they can’t say anything anymore.
Just for some perspective: there are a lot of different types of Orthodox Jews (which sounds weird, because as a fraction of the general population the Orthodox Jewish population is tiny, but even so) and there are MANY different approaches to education and religion among them. So the comparison to Kiryas Joel isn’t really apt, and if you then compared it to, say, RAMAZ in NYC then it would also be a big difference in terms of what they allow or don’t. Not all Orthodox Jews do things the same way, and to be perfectly honest, not all Orthodox Jewish girls WANT to do the kinds of things Laughaholic wants to. Are they (I should say we) repressed and not exposed to our possibilities? Perhaps (though my school’s much better about it than hers seems to be), I really don’t know. She obviously doesn’t seem to be in a good fit, and while many people are very happy in Orthodox schools, the people who aren’t REALLY aren’t. It’s absolutely a problem that I think needs a lot more attention paid to it.
If Laughaholic is at this school, it’s probably because her family already decided that public school wasn’t an option.
IMO, all she can do is graduate or switch schools (I think Laughaholic knows where I go, and she can come if she wants! ). A problem is that the people who run the schools tend to be on the more conservative end of the spectrum than the people who go to them (though I’m sure most of the students in Laughaholic’s school are as conservative as the school is) so that people who want to go to a Jewish school but don’t necessarily agree with all of the policies don’t have a lot of choice.</p>
<p>LaughaholicMD: I’m so impressed that you have been working as a volunteer/trainee EMT. You must have a level head, iron stomach, and very caring heart.</p>
<p>Right now you’re just going to have to comply with the demands of your school. It’s probably not a good idea to switch schools at this point or spend much time trying to convince the administration that your view is the correct one. Explain the current situation to your squad, and during the next year stay in touch with them as much as possible. Visit, take snacks, let them know how you’re doing. If you plan on going to college, stay away from any place that would approve of discrimination against women. I presume that you have had your parents’ support in your EMT training and work. Surely they will support your going somewhere that will not treat you the way your current school is doing.</p>
<p>In a year you’ll be out and will have much more freedom about where you go and what you do. Stay positive through knowing that your school can only put restrictions on you for nine or so more months, after which you can do what you want. Stay strong through knowing that you can soon be a position where you are saving lives.</p>
<p>Saving a life is honored in Judaism, to the point where many other laws are suspended in favor of it. However, some professions are problematic with regards to the modesty guidelines, which as Hannahbanana explained are interpreted with some variation. Discussion of them is beyond the scope of and expertise of CC. I am not Orthodox and also am not in a position to judge. </p>
<p>By posting on a secular board like CC, the OP will surely get support for her position, but there are other perspectives to consider. The experts in the OP’s community are in a better position than we are to discuss the OP’s goals within the framework of her religion. As the article linked describes, the OP is not the only Orthodox woman who wishes to be an EMT. The response has been to seek solutions to allow it. </p>
<p>As a parent, I see the OP as similar to many teens her age, who are questioning their parents’ or communities perspectives and are frustrated with certain restrictions. This is normal and while every young adult seeks his or her way in the world, this may or may not have to result in rejecting the values they were raised with. These situations remind me of the Cat Stevens’ song “Father and Son” where the son wants to be an adult and leave now, while the father implores “Wait, there is time”. In this case, I think the father has a point. It’s not that the OP can not be an EMT. It’s “not right now”.</p>
<p>Sorry, I’ve been busy and haven’t checked the thread since I posted. Thanks everyone for your input! A couple points:
Yes, I am Jewish, orthodox. I’m in high school and I actually chose the school myself. That being said, I was in 8th grade then and in my community, acceptance into high school is quite competitive and there is a lot of stress involved. I did actually try to switch this year into a better suited Jewish school, but the school doesn’t accept students as seniors. My principal supported the decision and although both she and my Rabbi got involved, they did not accept me. </p>
<p>I’m going to look into one last option, even though 12th grade has already started. Although it is late, I feel that this is going to be a difficult year if I stay where I am and I don’t want to constantly feel at odds with my school and their policies. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>My mother is 100% supportive of me. She said I should leave school and just finish the necessary courses through community college and then move onto a regular university, but I’m not ready for that yet. My father is the one that actually informed my school about the EMT course. He is extremely upset that I joined the squad and am taking the class, but I don’t live with him and his opinion is, quite honestly, not what concerns me right now. My mother is the primary parent in my life and she has been amazing throughout all of this. </p></li>
<li><p>I just want to clarify a little about Judaism. For those that think it is restrictive and that women are treated second-class, that is not the case. My school does not approve because they hold to certain religious standards. My standards are not any less than theirs, just different. To the contrary of treating women less, they don’t want me becoming an EMT because they feel it is below the modesty of a Jewish women and because I’d be socializing with men, which is generally not allowed until marriage. My principal is ultra-orthodox, but she also lives a beautiful life that revolves around her family and perpetuating Judaism. To her, that is the ultimate way to live. However, there are different ways to be a good, religious Jew and my way is different than hers. I feel no negativity towards my school and I do respect their values. However, they know the kind of person I am and I’m upset that I’m expected to uphold their values, as opposed to following my own that are NOT wrong, just different. </p></li>
<li><p>I have been discussing the situation extensively with my school. They said there is no way I can join the squad while I am still a student there, but there’s a small chance they <em>may</em> let me continue EMT school. I spoke to my Rabbi and he said EMT school is definitely not the problem, but my principal’s values are different than my Rabbi’s and so she is bringing the question to the higher ups of my school- Rabbi’s that she knows and trusts apparently more than mine. I’m sitting on edge waiting to hear an answer from the school. Considering that I got approval from my Rabbi, who I certainly trust more than my school, I’m just hoping I get a positive response. If I at least go through EMT school now, I can join the squad as soon as I graduate high school.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>You certainly don’t have to agree, but this kind of thing is <em>precisely</em> what makes outsiders think the women are treated like second class citizens. When there are rules that hem in the lives of women because they have to be “protected” for their own good, that is not equality, or even separate but equal.</p>
<p>In any case, it is a good thing that your mother and your rabbi support you. You may have to wait a little while, but you will be able to become an EMT.</p>
<p>For those who are wondering why my school considers it inappropriate:
Modesty is a huge aspect of our religion. That includes the way we dress, talk and act.
A. I’d be talking to and possibly hanging out with guys. That is not really allowed, but I know what my personal religious boundaries are and I know what I can and cannot do. That being said, my school cannot try to sequester me in an attempt to prevent me from doing what they consider to be “wrong.” I’m an independent person and I need to be able to choose for myself what is considered right and wrong.</p>
<p>B. They probably don’t consider it appropriate for a girl to be “out and about” like that. Many of the girls in my school and in that part of Judaism will remain in the Jewish system their entire lives. They’ll attend a Jewish college, find a Jewish workplace and remain in that societal group for the rest of their lives. There is nothing in Judaism that says you have to do that. It is an extra measure for some people and it is a beautiful and fulfilling way to live. But it only works for some people. Not everyone can live their lives like that and it is not right to try and force those that can’t live like that into that kind of lifestyle. </p>
<p>C. They’re scared that if I’m in such environment, I’ll be influenced and become less religious or irreligious all together. It has nothing to do with whether they trust me or not, it just has to do with the fact that they don’t feel it’s the right place for a religious girl to be. In addition, they feel that not all EMTs are of the “highest class of people” and that could reflect negatively on me and be even more of a bad influence. This is where they need to allow me to make my own decisions about what I want to do with my life. They also need to recognize that not everyone is meant to be as religious as they are and that I can socialize and interact with world without losing my Jewish identity.</p>
<p>It really all goes back to the modesty aspect because there is actually a large, all Jewish EMT squad called Hatzolah. They specifically service the Jewish community and it would be a viable option, except that they don’t allow women to ride.</p>
<p>A few comments. NO people/place/things/etc automatically deserve respect. It has to be earned. Therefore nothing wrong with not respecting tenants of a religion et al (re posts #14 and 42). Especially if they are the antitheses of things you do respect.</p>
<p>OP- your religion does indeed sound like women are treated like second class citizens, especially with the restrictions placed on them and not the men. You can choose to follow it, but that is your problem.</p>
<p>If we should respect that which we find abhorrent then those of that belief should give us at least equal respect. But that would involve giving up the ideas making up the belief. </p>
<p>Isn’t it wonderful that humans can find so many opposite ways to feel are the correct way to be/do things? Fortunately in this country adults are not bound by their parents’ beliefs or wishes. Anyone offended by my beliefs should consider how much I may be offended by theirs (and mine don’t include needing to care about them). All sorts of ways to use logic.</p>
<p>OP- fortunately you are not at odds with your family. Continue to discuss with your parents your best overall options for the next nine months. It may be giving up the EMT experience or it may be divorcing yourself from the school and getting a GED with the options you posted. Having a GED or otherwise being homeschooled will be irrelevant once you have your next degree. I’m sure you have learned a lot about yourself in the course of these events. Not all young people are forced to question their decisions at your age.</p>
<p>I am rather inclined to share your beliefs, I think. I would never join a synagogue that wasn’t egalitarian.</p>
<p>But I think there’s a bright line between respectful, courteous disagreement and belittling disparagement. And wis75, I think your last post is on the wrong side of that line.</p>
<p>I never intended to be respectful- that is the point. You have to earn respect. Just because things are part of a formal group does not mean they deserve respect. Nor does being of a majority. Perhaps some things do need to be “cut down to size”. Perhaps some are tired of being stepped on by others who consider themselves …</p>
<p>OP, I have read this thread with great interest. I respect your ability to remain your own person while understanding the viewpoint of your school. I hope it works out for you to remain in EMT school. If the decision is negative, I am sure you will become an EMT after graduation.</p>
<p>I understood your point, wis. I disagree with it. I think you are in the wrong here.</p>
<p>And for the record, I don’t think Laughaholic has disparaged anyone’s beliefs–including yours–in this thread. I think you brought your own baggage in and dumped it on her.</p>
<p>I wish I could just get my GED, but considering how hard I have worked in the past year and a half so I can apply to top colleges, it’s not worth it for me now. I could potentially go to Rutgers or YU ( a Jewish, but decent school), but I don’t think it’s worth ruining whatever small chances I may have of getting into my top schools (MIT and Hopkins). The EMT course would not be the impetus for me to leave school at this point anyway because as upset as I am about the whole situation, it’s not worth it. If anything, I’d leave because I can’t be in a school that can’t accept the fact that in religion, different does not mean wrong! I need to be able to go my own way and (I hate to sound cliche) utilize my potential.</p>
<p>For the record, I don’t think wis was over any line at all.</p>
<p>Laughaholic, since you are in your senior year and will shortly be graduating and moving on, I think you should chalk this one up to experience and concentrate on getting into the best colleges for you. As you have learned, one does change over time. You can continue to appreciate the beauty you see in the lives of people like your principal, while realizing that you, personally, do not wish to live precisely that kind of life.</p>
). A problem is that the people who run the schools tend to be on the more conservative end of the spectrum than the people who go to them (though I’m sure most of the students in Laughaholic’s school are as conservative as the school is) so that people who want to go to a Jewish school but don’t necessarily agree with all of the policies don’t have a lot of choice.</p>