Definitely true about CS and CE. Probably true about electrical engineering, that I’m not as sure. I’ll recategorize.
Washington State University does provide full tuition to NMF students, if OP wants to take advantage of any opportunities.
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A good “fit” meant a decent chance of getting in with his profile with decent education in both engineering and business. Prefer in-state but out-state is not out of the question. If paying close to 80k, the education better be worth the price tag. For ex., there are special programs in UPENN that some people actually believe would be worth it even given a high price tag. Probably a school where he will meet students more like him. My son didn’t find HS interesting including the APs, he finds joy in subjects that actually make you wonder and challenges (academic or athletics). He also find more in common with kids who think similar. For ex., he made so many more friends in one summer internship than 1 year in HS because they could appreciate his jokes.
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He would be fine at Cal-Poly. But some strange that I heard today is that a collegue’s daughter got accepted by MIT but rejected by Cal-state-pomona because she was such a strong candidate that they believe she would just reject them anyways. That concerns me a little since that could apply to a lot of safeties. What do you think?
Yeah, UCR and UCSC is on our consideration for safeties. Thanks
My son likes Rice simply because he really like the unique residential colleges. We don’t like the price tag unless he gets some merit scholarship; however, it does offer all that he is looking for where he can major in Engineering and perhaps also explore finance/business majors. It is also right next to all the major health care companies so plenty of internship opportunities. The only thing we don’t like is the hot weather during the summer.
- A higher rank doesn’t mean a better education. It may mean more students like him but every flagship will have kids like him. Tulsa is 25% NMF. Bama has quantity wise the most or maybe second today (not percentage wise). Your kid is great but don’t assume he’s beyond the other kids - ie he’s the creme de la creme. He’ll be one of many.
What a higher rank means is that a publication - ie US News creates a criteria they like - and schools like Tulsa, Bama, RPI and more buy high stat kids in to compete.
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You really want to know if the ‘outcomes’ are worth $80k more a year because you have no idea if the education is better at Penn than name your school.
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You have no idea why a student was rejected at Pomona but I highly doubt it’s why you say. Perhaps they missed a requirement. Their yield is not good. I highly doubt they are practicing yield management.
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If he wants business and engineering, maybe look at Ga tech Industrial Eng, and Purdue and Lehigh have programs (not ABET engineering though). Not sure which safer choices have both. Bama has STEM to MBA which you can do on the NMF but I personally don’t like an MBA sans work experience. That’s up to each person though.
Unless you have need, a school like Penn for example, is over $80k and not insignificantly. Then there is annual inflation.
Is it worth it? Only you can decide.
Are the outcomes better ? On average -likely.
Are they $350k better than Tulsa, UTD, or Bama. $375k vs Tulsa. Or pick your other school like UC and compare the difference in cost. How long will it take you to recoup that difference, if you will at all.
That’s the question you have to answer.
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Reason for wanting both majors?
As a practical matter, doing a full major in both will likely mean overloading or taking extra semesters.
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If you want healthcare, look at Vandy.
Nashville is the health mecca. In fact, Oracle just moved to Texas but bought Cerisian and is now moving here bcuz their focus will now be healthcare. . We also have HCA, the largest hospital group amongst others.
Larry Ellison said - "It’s the center of the industry we’re most concerned about, which is the healthcare industry”
All that said, you can get to any industry from any college location.
Vandy has half and full merit abd not a minor but a business experience.
But no residential college system which I believe UCSD has. And Vandy to some extent too.
CSUs do not do that. However, CSUs’ admission formulae may have quirks that can produce these kinds of odd results. For example, the weighted-capped GPA used in CSU admission formulae tends to go down if the student has more total courses, even if all of the additional courses get the honors +1 points. This could be an issue when applying to the most selective majors at some CSU campuses.
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Respectfully, this stat is not really as impressive as you are trying to make it. Accepting an academic scholarship from one of these schools automatically elevates a NMSF to NMF status. There are dozens of schools that have both a higher number and percentage of NMSF. Sure, there are brilliant kids everywhere. But certainly in higher concentrations elsewhere.
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You are already aware that there are brilliant kids everywhere, so perhaps you think that this statistic is designed to “impress” others. And I guess, technically, you’re right, but it’s to impress upon students/families that there ARE brilliant kids everywhere. Some students/families assume that if they haven’t heard of a school or that it’s not a Top X school on USNWR that there are no brilliant kids there. Whether it’s NMF or NMSF isn’t really the point…the point is that students who score high on a standardized test are attending these “other” schools. I don’t think that anyone is trying to make out that U. of Tulsa or U. of Alabama is going to have a higher number and percentage of NMF or NMSF students than MIT or Pomona.
I am not trying to make the stat anything The stats are the stats. OP can draw whatever conclusion they want.
They are published data - although I can’t find this years NMF #s so my biggest in quantity is a couple years old.
I think it’s you or someone who says there are 16,000 NMFS, which 15K will make. That’s not many kids - overall - 16K - so 250-300 in one year is a lot given all the colleges in this country.
It’s Tulsa who quotes they have the highest concentration. Link below.
That seems impressive to me. Maybe not others - but I find it impressive.
I didn’t say other schools don’t have smart kids.
I said - there are smart students, like OP everywhere. OP wrote, in my opinion (how I interpreted), that going to X schools would put him amongst other like kids whereas going to Y school won’t.
I simply noted that these kids will be at school Y too - and while OP’s student is strong, he won’t necessarily stand out amongst the crowd at those schools (school Y). . Vs the averages yes - but it won’t be the student and everyone else is 3 notches down.
I’m not sure how anything I presented is anything less than what I just wrote.
The reality is - kids like mine were not even allowed to apply to x school - because they had no merit and I was not paying - so by nature of a no merit policy, certain schools are missing the opportunity to get fantastic students. Their loss is another school’s gain. And when you think about that - a school like Penn with a miniscule acceptance rate would be even lower if students didn’t self select out (and they do).
When you have 16K NM scholars (not a # I sourced but someone, perhaps yourself, has quoted it) - if you have 300, that’s a big #. Now some say - but some schools don’t track it - ok - but those students still have the status and again, 16K isn’t a lot.
Anyone can take it as they wish - I already noted - which school had the most per capita and which had by population and noted not by percentage. So I’m not sure what you think I’m implying other than that.
The bottom line point - where OP goes, they’ll find like kids - maybe not as concentrated, but they’ll find like kids.
And back to my conclusion - I didn’t tell OP not to choose a school that’s $90K+. I said - and only OP can decide - is that $350K delta - or whatever it is for each school vs. another - a UC will be less a delta as it costs more - is that “hopeful” outcome difference at the $90K+ school worth it?
I can’t answer for OP and left that for them to decide.
OP brought up the pricing scenario - hence it’s a relevant issue and question.
Thank you.
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Some colleges practice yield management and some colleges track engagement. To the best of my knowledge, the CSUs do not do this. More typically, it is private schools that do this.
Which brings me to my favorite story, which I point out to high stats students who consider SCU a safety. My daughter was not only accepted to UC Berkeley, but is a Regents’ Scholar (top 1-2% of all applicants). She was waitlisted by Santa Clara. My understanding is that Santa Clara wants to see some love from applicants, and highly favors ED/EA applicants over RD applicants (my daughter was the latter). So, yes, some schools do care about this. But I do not believe that is the case with CSUs and is much less common among publics than privates.
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We had last year - stories of in at MIT but not BU - and in at UCB but not SDSU.
Who know which AO is reading what, what side of the bed they woke up on or what they see?
Other than maybe SCU, and I’m not sure they are for domestic - I don’t see anywhere need aware - so it doesn’t matter. Plus, OP doesn’t appear to have need or significant need. But - we all know - some kids can get rejected (at need aware schools) based on their financial profile.
All sorts of reasons things happen. But one thing is for sure - no student will ever know why.
They’ll tell you the why to justify their rejection.
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Return focus to the OP please
Looping @Gumbymom in here again but my understanding of CPP is that if you meet the index you are in. So it was either: one of the departments that is super competitive there and she missed the cut off; or perhaps he meant cal poly SLO, where there is both more competitiveness in general and more leeway in how SLO decides who to admit (I don’t believe SLO is a safety for anyone, or at least not anyone outside their local area); OR what may have happened is she was one of the applicants who inadvertently left off the HS algebra/languages she had done in middle school from her course listing on the cal state application and this mistake made her seem ineligible to meet their requirements.
CSUs are publics whose function is to educate Californians, particularly those from their local regions, not to manipulate admit rates.
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He would be fine at Cal-Poly. But some strange that I heard today is that a collegue’s daughter got accepted by MIT but rejected by Cal-state-pomona because she was such a strong candidate that they believe she would just reject them anyways. That concerns me a little since that could apply to a lot of safeties.
I think the @SJ2727 insights are on target about this issue. Cal Poly to Northern California residents is Cal Poly SLO. Cal Poly to Southern California residents is Cal Poly Pomona.
Cal Poly Pomona’s CPP index is pretty straight forward so exceeding the major threshold for a student that was admitted to MIT would have been a non-issue and I cannot see how that qualified of student would be denied.
SLO’s admission process as pointed out is different than a simple index. SLO calculates GPA differently, requires that Middle school Math/FL courses be reported to receive the extra rigor points and many majors have admit rates comparable to the competitive UC campuses. There are several stories of students that were accepted to Stanford, Cal Tech and UC Berkeley but not admitted at SLO. Different admission criteria between these schools.
I believe the Cal Poly referred to in your post is most likely SLO.
Cal states like the UC’s do not consider an applicant’s level of interest and they do not yield protect however, they do give priority to students within their local admission area.
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Would this special program be clearly your son’s first choice if he gets in? Is U.Penn likely to be affordable? I would only apply ED at all anywhere if you get a strong YES to both questions.
Otherwise I think that you son is doing very well, and is a very strong candidate for any university in the US. Of course for Stanford and MIT and similar schools “a very strong candidate” does not make acceptance anything other than a reach. I do wonder about adding another UC or two as safeties (although with your son’s stats I hope that he is getting accepted to several of the schools that are already on the list).
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FWIW I don’t know that I’d call SCU a safety for your son’s majors - and fin aid can vary - check the recent SCU threads on CC and Reddit where more than a few high stat kids turned SCU down due to not enough merit $$. But you never know unless you apply! Note that they are a demonstrated interest school.
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To be honest, he is not quite sure what he wants to pursue in just yet. He is comfortable with STEM (Engineering) but also find other subjects interesting. He would ask me some basic finance questions one day, then he is simulating stock trading few days later. He did quite a bit of work in CS (Cyber Security and AI) but he doesn’t just want to do CS strictly. Thus, he figures that he would do engineering first, look into double or minor major in economics/finance/business. This is the main reason why he is most interested in UPenn M&T Program. UPenn comes with high price tag & M&T is extremely selective. Many believe the heavy price tag is worth it because the program opens up a lot more doors to many different industries as soon as you are accepted into the program. Yes, you can still choose an engineering job after you graduate and be paid the same amount as other engineering graduates from public schools. However, I think where this stands out is that there seems to be way more other options and can be quite lucrative from all sorts of industries besides just a professional tech job. It is also supposed to be very challenging but that actually motivates him. Can we afford it? Probably but it will likely delay my retirement a year or 2. So we don’t have a strong YES. It is his first choice so we are only considering it for ED., we will likely add UCR and UCSC as safeties. Thanks for the inputs
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