Chances of RD (or ED) for FL rising senior (SAT 1600/ACT 36, 4.0/4.9, NMF) for Yale, Harvard, WashU, Princeton, UChicago, etc. & RD vs. ED

Your student has stellar STATS. May I throw in one more school to consider, Williams College. It is a reach for anyone, but both my niece and nephew majored in science there and did participate in research. Nephew got his masters/phd from MIT soon after and is now a post doc at Harvard studying climate chemistry. It sounds like it could be a good fit. It is also one of the most generous schools for grant aid, after or comparable to Princeton, for families with incomes as high as 175K.

Neuroscience at Williams:
https://neuroscience.williams.edu/

Scientific research at Williams:
https://science.williams.edu/student-faculty-research/

Creative writing at Williams:
https://catalog.williams.edu/engl/list/?sbattr=ENGL_ENGLWRIT&subj=NA&req_year=22&offered=A

Discussion about the writing scene at Williams:

Generous aid:

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If this is in response to my post, I was not suggesting classification has anything to do with the cutbacks, rather that R1s are generally more dependent on federal grant money. I was talking less about the targeted cuts at individual institutions because they have gotten on the “naughty” list (which any school or federally funded research project could, including of course, at LACs) and more on the broad cuts that impact any institution that has that kind of money (NIH grant cuts, NSF, etc.).

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Interesting that the per capita appears to be dominated by small to mid-sized schools. Curious, does that just mean they attract a higher percentage of undergrads interested in PhDs than big schools on average? Is it a reflection of wealth of student family populations in some way? Something else? I would not have expected a difference based on size.

One wild guess: LACs in most cases are less likely to have engineering as a major, or will have fewer engineering options. Students who get degrees in engineering may be less likely to go on to PhD’s.

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Perhaps the type of student attracted ? Perhaps the school’s focus - like Wooster and research? Perhaps the smaller teacher to student ratio inspire this ?

Given the #s are much smaller, I’d guess #1. Some school likely have wealthy students but there’s a lot of big merit schools on the list.

Others, including @Shelby_Balik and @dfbdfb, likely have more accurate insights.

I think the big thing is - you are looking for a stat equivalent school which is fine. But it may not be the right choice- both financially and access to what you seek which is why I provided the list.

I wasn’t sure that PhD or any grad school was in the stated future but since you noted research.

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Having been summoned😁, I will say that one viable possibility—mentioned by others, but I want to foreground it—is a cohort-based honors or residential college/program within a Big State University. Perhaps the prototypical non-honors-college example is the Blount Scholars Program at the University of Alabama, but there are plenty of others.

(BTW, speaking of Alabama, they have a sparkling-new neuroscience major, built on a long history of solid research in the field. Also, with a 4.0+/1600, your kid would auto-qualify for an absolutely amazing scholarship there, and with all the AP/IB credits might actually be able to parlay it into completing the BS in three years and having the fourth year of the scholarship cover the first year of grad school.)

Big State Universities generally have the faculty size to handle it when a faculty member or two leaves—that can be a danger at smaller places, especially in a field with so many different subfields and approaches as neuroscience. You expressed concern about large universities, but that’s where the utility of cohort-based programs comes in—they shrink the size down to something reasonable, and provide a buffer on the way to dealing with the larger university.

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Thanks - great point on faculty. Bama has Randall Research too. And McCullough Pre Med.

Yes, if not NMF, Bama gives you 4 years tuition, one year housing, $2k once and $1500 a year so maybe better than UF/FSU but still the big school.

Great offer but maybe not the priority but makes you wonder - maybe a mid size like Pitt or since they don’t like the city. Miami Ohio has the major, a great Honors program, great merit and a Center for Neuroscience and Behavior. It reminded my daughter and I of a large William & Mary - very LAC-ish and far smaller overall than the SEC schools.

As it turns out, it is actually more the opposite–at least in crude terms.

Like if you look just at the gross numbers by field, Engineering is one of the top few fields for PhDs–Bio/Life Sciences is the only bigger one as I recall. In that sense, LACs without engineering that do well in the per capita totals may actually be overcoming a natural deficit. And indeed, the top 4 in total PhDs per capita are Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Swarthmore, and MIT–Harvey Mudd being a STEM specialist, and Swarthmore being more so than most LACs (with engineering, although obviously not as much as Mudd).

Of course things might look a little different if you actually controlled for major mix. Like, dividing the Engineering PhDs by the overall student population doesn’t necessarily make a ton of sense, you might instead at least divide it by the number of graduating Engineering majors.

And in fact, one of the “hidden” things that might be hurting some universities is undergraduate pre-professional programs, like business schools, nursing schools, architecture schools, and so on. Of course sometimes a PhD follows, but probably less often. And to the extent those kids are providing part of the base population, that is going to work against such an university in crude per capita measures.

And that leads back to the broader question, and I do think a lot of this is just self-selection. Not exclusively, of course, but LACs tend to attract a lot of kids who are planning to go on to some sort of graduate program, and who agree that choosing an undergrad-specialist for undergrad makes sense. LACs also tend to do well, although maybe not quite as well, in things like per capita law school or med school placement studies, professional paths where there is a lot of flexibility in terms of undergrad majors.

But although I have not actually seen anything like this, I suspect once you get into paths where usually you want a specialized undergrad degree, then except for the LACs that actually have that program, the rest are going to drop out of the higher rankings.

That said, I also think in many PhD admissions contexts, having good professor support can be critical, and I think it can sometimes be a little easier to develop those relationships at LACs. Obviously plenty of people will also do that at research universities, but when you are looking at per capita numbers for something as narrow as PhD admissions, then things that are marginal differences overall, but significant differences for some specific students, could start mattering.

But I don’t know of a good way to truly test this hypothesis. And even as stated, it really depends on the individual kid.

So personally, I like to limit myself to the claim that LACs observably can do a good job supporting kids with grad or professional school ambitions, assuming they offer the necessary undergrad programs. But so can research universities. And which is the best choice is going to be an individual question.

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My hypothesis - the “default” path is to go to your large state school or a large typical university for the college experience, and then look for a job. Hence, students who are not interested in PhDs (a non-default option) are more likely to go to large, typical research universities. On the other hand, a student who is intentional enough to plan their career out to a graduate school path may choose LACs or research universities. Even if these students did equally well in with either option, LACs would come out ahead in per capita PhD matriculation due to the greater density of these students.

TL;DR selection bias

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Nursing might be a better example than engineering. I just Googled “how many engineers in the US” and got 1.8 million. I Googled “how many nurses in the US” and got 4.6 million licensed registered nurses. Thus nursing is a much larger group, and indeed tend to usually not get PhDs. Business majors might be another good example.

Regardless I agree that controlling by the type of bachelor’s degree would improve the usefulness of any stats.

I agree that self-selection is an issue. However, I have no idea how to control for this.

Yes. A student should look for a good fit for them, whether this be a small LAC or a large research university or something else.

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You are getting a lot of good advice. As the parent of 2 HYP kids here is my advice. If your son really wants to not limit his choices then he should EA instead of ED. The slight advantage of applying SCEA to HYP is not really there anymore. (meaning the acceptance rates btw EA and RD are much closer now. I do understand totally how hard it is to find really target schools that you think your child would be happy at. They are out there. I would take a look at W&M. Your son’s scores will get him an interview for Monroe scholars, UNC has a great honors college with it’s own administrators, WashU is great and if he loves it then apply early if not apply RD. Pitt and CMU are great choices. Have you visited all these schools on the list? Why does he like them? They a few are very different feels and settings. Use this info to find other schools

Please turn back to the OP and take the back and forth discussion about LACs and R1s to PM. Thank you!

Would he be in honors, thereby providing a smaller experience within a larger school?

If these schools are truly not acceptable, I would spend time finding likely schools that are. There have been many great suggestions.

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You might want to try Kenyon as a target.

The science program is small but well-regarded. If your son is premed the placement rates are strong. Kenyon also has a famous writing program that would appeal to him. Kenyon has some scholarship money that is offered. Your son would be a strong candidate. I just toured the campus and found it very appealing.

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Thanks for these suggestions!

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yes, we would apply to the honors colleges there. That would be a good way for him to have a built-in social structure. He really wants a school where most kids live on campus all 4 years for that reason I think (built-in social structure for a kid who struggles there). UF has the horsepower he’s looking for, but he wants a smaller scale version.

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It wil be tough to match the oomph of UF because of the size.

Miami Ohio ( not urban like Pitt but in size range ) is very well regarded and has a Center for Neuro. It’s highly regarded with good merit. UVM is in a small city.

Has he looked at Rice and the residential college system ?

Four year living - if accurate - double check - Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall, Vanderbilt and for less expense Susquehanna. Didn’t look which had Neuro.

For what it’s worth - yes it’s tiny but FAU Wilkes requires two years - and has the Neuro Concentration. It’s one of the top Honors Colleges. .

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Also, this can apply to other majors like business.

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