Changes in AP Test Scoring

[Knowsstuff]

So at my son’s school AP Seminar /Research was a great course for him. You had to take AP Lang and maybe AP push prior. For “him” he gained so much especially how to write and do research and how to present in a live lecture series. This strongly carried over to Michigan,for him being a weak writer before.

Regardless if he got credit or not the class series itself was well worth it for him. He already had the spiky rigorous AP classes and all honor classes needed for college. This one class series was his way to become a much better writer and presenter. He used those skills daily in college and now at his job.

So, yes I think there is some worth with some of these courses actually AP or not.

Just saying …

Also as I first read this sentence I didn’t know what you do and I said to myself… Why?

“thinking about this thread all day today. I’m attending the National Advanced Placement (AP) Conference in Boston this week.”

[sbinaz]

Random thoughts I have on this topic (interesting topic, btw!):

• my kid is using AP exams to get college credit so we can reduce costs by 1 or 2 semesters
• Plus our high school requires taking a min # of AP exams in order to graduate
• College Board is a business. With the trend over the past few yr since COVID of more schools going test optional, their SAT revenue has decreased. Finding a way to increase AP revenue is a logical way to fill the gap. I don’t care about this though. And ye, a small handful of colleges HAVE switched back to test mandatory.
• I also don’t care if people think that getting a 3 on an AP exam is basically like failing and that anything less than a 5 is a failure to them. It’s a free country. Odds are that they/their kids are not applying to the same places that my kid is. They’re swimming in a different lane than my kid so that’s not my problem or my business.
• an AP cybersecurity class is dumb
• Whether or not a college gives you course credit for passing an AP exam is highly variable from 1 school to another. Back when D24 was a freshman in high school (so 5 yr ago), the counselor even then told all of us parents that if your kid is applying to a highly rejective college, those schools expect you to take the most rigorous curriculum AND. They expect you to get all A’s in the classes AND they expect 5’s on all your AP exams and no, they won’t give you course credit for those APs. Is that “fair?” Sure it is. Those highly rejective colleges can make their own policies just like other colleges do for themselves. There’s many different flavors of ice cream.
• just because College Board adds more AP class options doesn’t meant that high schools everywhere will have teachers to actually teach the class. Our HS doesn’t offer AP Comp Sci A because they don’t have an instructor for it.

[Collegequestions5]

@Mwfan1921

The issue seems to be at schools that don’t gatekeep access to APs (either thru testing and/or pre-reqs) and/or aren’t able to provide teachers who are familiar with and/or have the capability to teach the AP curriculum. These are often the schools where a significant proportion of students score 1 or 2 on the AP tests (while often getting an A in the class), and sadly many of these schools are often Title 1 and/or other disadvantaged schools.

This is our high school. And I think it’s great that AP classes are available to all, and I don’t think it matters all that much what scores the students get on the tests. AP classes are the most rigorous classes offered at our school, generally taught by the best teachers, so a year of AP curriculum is almost always going to be better than the alternative. If some kids get 4s and 5s on the actual exams–which many do–that’s icing on the cake. But I think it’s unequivocally a good thing that the most rigorous classes are open to all students, and I don’t see a 1 or 2 as evidence that those students should not have been allowed to take those classes. They won’t get college credit for these scores, so at worst they go to college better prepared to succeed if/when they take the same classes again.

Now, do I think AP curricula are uniformly high quality or that AP classes should be de facto the most rigorous offered? No! Do I have a lot of questions/concerns about the College Board? Yes! But that’s our HS context, and in that context, I’m glad that barriers to access have been lowered.

[fretfulmother]

Why indeed! It would be a much more interesting story if I were here as a CC plant

[Mwfan1921]

@Collegequestions5

AP classes are the most rigorous classes offered at our school, generally taught by the best teachers, so a year of AP curriculum is almost always going to be better than the alternative.

I don’t believe this to be true. It’s great that HS students challenge themselves. But, not every HS student is ready for the rigor of AP courses.(Note: I am not making a judgment on a student’s likelihood of success in college or life, or their overall potential when I say this.)

@Collegequestions5

and I don’t see a 1 or 2 as evidence that those students should not have been allowed to take those classes. They won’t get college credit for these scores, so at worst they go to college better prepared to succeed if/when they take the same classes again.

What this shows is that for whatever reason(s), the student did not learn the material.

I personally can’t make the connection that a student in this situation is better prepared to succeed because they took this class. Maybe, maybe not. There can be negative consequences when a student is placed in a course that is too rigorous for them, at that point in time.

[SJ2727]

@Mwfan1921

The issue seems to be at schools that don’t gatekeep access to APs (either thru testing and/or pre-reqs)

Just going to say this is a broad brush statement. Our high school doesn’t restrict people from signing up for APs if they want, other than the math teachers need to approve Calc AB/BC; only some have prerequisites (like Chem and Bio), but a typical year has 95-100% of AP outcomes at 3 or higher.

[31fan]

Maybe this is straying from the topic, but what do we think of “teaching to the test”?

AP classes at my kids’ HS seem to focus very much on preparation for the AP tests, and the kids are assigned a lot of practice problems, DBQs, etc. This approach seems to be very successful in getting good test results; there is no gatekeeping (other than prerequisites), and 92 percent of students get a score of 3 or above on at least one AP.

Generally “teaching to the test” gets a bad rap, but in the case of APs, is it a bad thing?

[momofboiler1]

My D’s HS had a good amount of gate keeping. There was a required entrance exam, used for admission to the school, that was used for placement for every subject. To get bumped up a “track” required an oral exam with the chair of the department and doubling up on the subject to catch up. Students were required to have the necessary, pre-reqs, at least a B+, and the teacher’s blessing to take the AP class. AP courses were fast paced and mostly taught by PhDs in the field. They were great but very rigorous and very much structured as a college course. Students did very well on AP exams.

They definitely periodically did AP practice problems and DBQs, but the classes went well beyond the AP exam. As such I don’t think they were teaching to the test. They were just making sure students were prepared for the format and types of questions they would encounter.

[Collegequestions5]

I think I pushed this conversation to (possibly past) the outer limits of this thread’s scope, so to avoid mod intervention, I will suggest that we agree to disagree.

[Shelby_Balik]

@31fan

AP classes at my kids’ HS seem to focus very much on preparation for the AP tests, and the kids are assigned a lot of practice problems, DBQs, etc. This approach seems to be very successful in getting good test results; there is no gatekeeping (other than prerequisites), and 92 percent of students get a score of 3 or above on at least one AP.

Generally “teaching to the test” gets a bad rap, but in the case of APs, is it a bad thing?

This is why I don’t love the AP program, even though my kids took/are taking AP courses (because they are the most rigorous options in their HS). In our HS, the AP teachers do a really good job of teaching to the test – they use assessments and assignments based on the AP curriculum and testing format/rubrics, and they kids learn how to answer those questions. So, yes, in order to do well on most AP tests, it probably helps to have teachers who know how to teach the formula.

But is that really best for the students? As a history professor, I don’t teach or assess according to anything like the AP rubric, which is rigid and formulaic. I don’t know any colleagues who do, either. I suspect that most college faculty – at least in the humanities and social sciences – would be horrified at the AP rubrics and assessments. This may not be the case in STEM disciplines (in which case courses that replicate an intro college class might follow a more predictable progression of concepts and skills), but it’s definitely true of the disciplines I’m familiar with. For example - in AP history and government classes, the rubric for essay prompts dictates that if you don’t get the argument point (thesis statement), no other points are possible. But I would never grade a paper like that – I’ve got a loose rubric and a sliding scale that allows students to gain more credit for things they do well, even if there are some elements of an essay that are weaker (i.e., if the argument is weak, it doesn’t necessarily trash the whole paper grade if other aspects are stronger). This kind of flexibility in grading is not possible in the AP scoring system. And also – I never use multiple choice tests.

That said, my kids have learned a lot in AP classes, and they have been challenged, and their teachers have (mostly) been wonderful. The best teachers are not limited by the AP curriculum, but they all have to conform to it on some level. My kids have done well, both in the courses and on the AP tests. But they both struggled to adapt to rubrics that are so inflexible that they don’t really give students the best chance to demonstrate what they have learned, because the formula trumps content and original analysis. It hasn’t always been like this - certainly not when I was in HS, decades ago, when AP teachers had a lot more latitude in teaching and testing the material. Teaching to the test might yield good scores, but it does not promote college-level learning.

[Twoin18]

@Mwfan1921

It’s great that HS students challenge themselves. But, not every HS student is ready for the rigor of AP courses.

There’s an interesting contrast between our local HS, which is large (~2000 students) and rigorously streamed between AP, college prep, regular and remedial classes for each subject, and the charter school which is much smaller (~500 students) and insists that all students take a minimum of 3 APs including AP English Language.

Our friend’s youngest went to the charter and was much less equipped for the rigor of UC classes than her siblings who went to the local HS and had an appropriate mix of AP and non-AP classes that were aligned with their strengths. Nevertheless the demographics of the charter school (many low income first gen kids) meant a significant percentage of kids got into top UCs and even Stanford. Our friend’s kid was astonished to be admitted to UCSB, when her siblings didn’t get into any UCs, but it’s been extremely challenging for her there.

The conclusion was that the charter school was forced to dumb down the AP classes and did not equip kids for college level independent work. We were told that basically you could get as much help as you needed and resubmit the material as many times as necessary to get through the AP class. And then it looked like these disadvantaged kids had great rigor and high grades. But I’ve no idea what the AP test scores were, the charter school didn’t want to talk about that.

[AustenNut]

I agree with both @Collegequestions5 and @Mwfan1921 even though they seem to be on relatively opposing sides.

@Collegequestions5

I think it’s unequivocally a good thing that the most rigorous classes are open to all students

Yes. Whatever academic “track” a student was on in middle school should not determine or limit a student’s options in high school. Nor should a teacher’s or administrator’s potential biases serve as an impediment to a motivated student. I always find it sad when the composition of the most rigorous classes is significantly different from the composition of the school in general.

@Mwfan1921

There can be negative consequences when a student is placed in a course that is too rigorous for them, at that point in time.

Absolutely. When a student is in a course that is too rigorous for them at that juncture, there can be very damaging impacts. It can impact the student’s self-esteem, interest in a field, interest in academics altogether, willingness to tackle future challenges, not to mention their transcript and scholarship hopes.

At the same time, there are others for whom being thrown in a deep pool is going to make them stronger, as they may find the struggle and challenge to overcome major obstacles extraordinarily satisfying and invigorating. Those people should have the option to do that (with the known likely obstacles presented to them ahead of time).

Essentially, I believe that a rigorous education should be available to all. Ideally, no matter what class/level a student is taking, it would have an appropriate level of rigor for them. Sadly, however, reality doesn’t always match up that way, which is why I am in favor of greater flexibility for students and families to make course selections in high school.

[Mwfan1921]

I agree with all of that.

@AustenNut

which is why I am in favor of greater flexibility for students and families to make course selections in high school.

At my kids’ HS (large affluent public, well known, competitive), if parents override what the teachers and/or tests recommend for levels, the student is not allowed to drop said class. The student can drop the class/go down a level if it was recommended by the teacher/tests.

There were too many parents putting their kids in classes that were over their heads. Generally it seemed the parents’ reasoning was for college admission purposes.

[tamagotchi]

At our large public HS, it really depends on the specific AP class.

Some APs (such as Econ, Gov) are very flexible just like any other class, students are allowed to drop, no student is required to take the exam if they don’t want to, and the class is not taught to the test at all.

Some APs (such as Physics C) require students to have a certain level of background, must commit to the class, cannot drop, must take the exam(s) at the end of the year, and there is more exam prep wrapped into the class. These particular classes also go beyond the AP curriculum and teach significantly more material.

My guess is that the distinction depends on how challenging the teachers feel the class is.

[AustenNut]

@Twoin18

The conclusion was that the charter school was forced to dumb down the AP classes and did not equip kids for college level independent work…But I’ve no idea what the AP test scores were, the charter school didn’t want to talk about that.

I think that it may not be a matter of what the school was “forced” to do. It may be, in part, a lack of understanding of what the AP standards are. For instance, the school (admin/teachers) may read information about the content to be covered or how to achieve points on a rubric, but the student’s depth of understanding that is presupposed to go along with that information/rubric isn’t made sufficiently explicit.

Additionally, the school faculty may have become inured to what outside standards really are if they are dealing with a population that has had suboptimal academic preparation. So the students enrolled in the AP classes may be the high school’s most academically strong and their responses to schoolwork may show much greater understanding and depth than much of the rest of their student population, but when compared to a larger (and more socioeconomically advantaged norm), that those students’ work is not as high of a standard.

@Mwfan1921

There were too many parents putting their kids in classes that were over their heads. Generally it seemed the parents’ reasoning was for college admission purposes.

This definitely shows a different perspective from what I’m used to! Much of my work is dealing with Title I schools and their populations, but I do know enough about selective admission high schools that they can often have problems of an entirely different sort! For situations like this, I definitely understand the position that the school you mentioned has taken.

[Twoin18]

@AustenNut

So the students enrolled in the AP classes may be the high school’s most academically strong and their responses to schoolwork may show much greater understanding and depth than much of the rest of their student population, but when compared to a larger (and more socioeconomically advantaged norm), that those students’ work is not as high of a standard

No my point was that the charter made AP classes like AP English Language compulsory for all students. That’s why these classes had to be dumbed down.

[fretfulmother]

So my thoughts here are split into two:

1. Teaching to the test: I don’t think this is always good or always bad. It depends on the definitions of every word in that phrase For example, is “the test” some crappy state assessment made up by “educational consultants” or is it an exam vetted by actual teachers/professors/experts? Is the “teaching” a deep take on the content that effectively prepares for any test, or a set of nonsense strategies only matched to a certain test format? Is “to the” exclusively what is done, or is there a one-class review of question types, etc.? And all that said, some of what someone called the “spiky” AP tests are not bad assessments to “teach to” in the sense of being able to do well on. I feel this way about the Chemistry and the Physics C exams, which are the ones I know best.
2. What is college-level learning and is it duplicated by AP? Again we see the divide on the parent thread to this one, i.e. what the intellectual elite might expect of classes, vs. a very pragmatic “how to start making money” approach to what college should be. Also, I think it’s pretty much a myth at this point that AP is “college level”. At least, I don’t believe it is. I understand that this is the claim, but it seems like an alternate reality that CB claims that every student should be able to take a college class…what? How would that remotely be a thing?

I was thinking today about the general way that I think certain wealth-elites have started gutting the value of Americana institutions. Like the auto industry, or the medical industry, or the attempts to do it with education through charter schools. I worry that this is what CB is doing. Cashing out on the reputation of AP while it still means “advanced”/college, and meanwhile democratizing the institution so much that it certainly will lose that cachet.

Again, I come back to the fact that you can call something AP but that is not going to change how many kids are in the top X percent of achievement/ability. I don’t want our Title-1 kids to be a pawn in this game, but I would settle for them not losing the chance to pull themselves up through academic achievement because of watering down of the curriculum.

[fretfulmother]

A big side effect of “when a student is placed in a course that is too rigorous for them,” that has not been mentioned yet, is behavior, and how that can bring down everyone’s achievement. I was in a session where they presented data on how mixing up levels in a class will raise the bottom kids’ expected scores on average, but lowers the top kids’ expected scores. What do we think is the reason for the latter? Somehow that is never discussed. (The reason for the former, i.e. having top kids teach bottom kids, is uncomfortable to me because it is not really a fair expectation but also with classes of 25+ I don’t know how you avoid it.)

[Mwfan1921]

@fretfulmother

I was in a session where they presented data on how mixing up levels in a class will raise the bottom kids’ expected scores on average, but lowers the top kids’ expected scores.

Interesting. I’ve never heard that! Is that study/data publicly available?

@fretfulmother

The reason for the former, i.e. having top kids teach bottom kids, is uncomfortable to me because it is not really a fair expectation but also with classes of 25+ I don’t know how you avoid it.)

I also wouldn’t support having top kids teach bottom kids (aside from what might happen organically.) Could having a TA in the class be an answer? I’ve never been a teacher, so not sure if in a given AP class of over 25 students that teachers feel they can’t effectively teach all?

@fretfulmother

Also, I think it’s pretty much a myth at this point that AP is “college level”.

I am not sure this is the case. Many admissions people see AP rigor > DE rigor when taken at a CC. That’s a generality of course because admissions people also know when a HS really isn’t implementing the AP curriculum and teaching it at the level it’s ‘meant’ to be. I put ‘meant’ in quotes to accommodate some of the issues that have been brought up in this thread.

[fretfulmother]

They said it “will be published soon” so who knows? It focused on precalculus and was data that was made, in the sense that they had 40,000 scores with other grade/readiness information and did epidemiological analysis, it seems.

Let me add a caveat that I thought every one of the presenters I saw needed a course in AP Statistics, to go over correlation vs. causation (!)

There was one in particular who talked about how taking just one AP class will improve outcomes for any/all students, based on observational studies about how each additional AP class taken improved outcomes historically. I also didn’t love the presentation that tried to show a “big” difference in various populations taking advanced classes in college, but had no units listed and then in tiny print you could see numbers with 0.1 as the step. So it looked like for instance, Black college students at UMN took a range of -0.4 to +0.1 advanced classes but White college students in the same major were in the -0.1 to 0.1 range. Which they (without units) named as “we have to work on this because of racism,” but I think could reasonably be interpreted as, “affirmative action is working because more Black students are in your university, and they are also taking advanced classes including at the same level as others, but not everyone since they didn’t yet have the backround”.

Yes, I think a TA (or really any additional adult in the room) is always a good thing. The best-funded schools will always, of course, have smaller classes to begin with. Unfortunately, there was one silly study that showed something like a specific standardized test score was not MUCH worse when there were 34 students instead of 33, so that study gets trotted out about how “class size doesn’t matter” by various districts including my previous district (wealthy, suburban). Despite recent in-district data, by the way, that parents were choosing private school largely for its smaller class sizes.

BTW this is all relevant to the post because the willful mis-interpretation of data and the use of numbers to pretend to have something to say, is what this AP thing is all about also.

Regarding AP being “college level”…it might still be in progress that this reputation is sinking, but I have seen signs of it. It could still be that AP rigor > DE rigor, because I’ve seen some pretty lackadaisical DE classes too.

I’m not sure I understand or agree with the latest push to do college in high school for kids who are already behind. Could it be another correlation <> causation but people see that the kids who do early college are really smart so if you have kids do early college they’ll get really smart? I hope not.

I mostly feel, as I’ve mentioned, very protective of my students and hopeful that we can give them academic legs up in the world.