Ucb, you assume. I don’t know your experience with kids this age, but money doesn’t create better individuals. Nor instill sense. They may have some privileges but nothing says their choices, output, and achievements are miraculous. Are you thinking they get better stats, understand leadership better, think/act on a deeper level, write a better app, because they have money and pay for help? Or go to away sports camps? And so on. Not.
And what I object to is the term “preference,” as if colleges “prefer” to load up on legacies and hardly vet them… This is my view. Clearly, others disagree. Arguing is pointless.
One needs to look at the kids, as represented in their apps. Founding something, holding fundraisers among their parents’ friends, going to pricey summer programs, etc, are not what tips kids in.
Meanwhile, savvy lower SES kids are advancing in legit ways.
I won’t argue further if this goes off track or into debate.
“Money doesnt buy smarts or the right accomplishments, thinking skills, etc. Imo, you overestimate.”
You underestimate the impact of wealth and I think actually have it wrong. Many studies have shown the massive inequality at selective colleges. At the 150 most selective colleges, students from the top quarter in income outweigh the bottom quarter by 14 to 1. Another study looked at the top 91 most selective colleges and the number is 24 to 1. The numbers show that 72% of students at elite colleges are from top quarter and 3% are bottom quarter.
That’s absolutely staggering, and I’m not sure what the solution is either, but it’s definitely not doing what the us college system is currently doing.
And money provides a safety net allowing them to make choices that are often more considered and free of major consequences in the case of failure.
We are a full pay family, so our kids didn’t “need” to have jobs during high school. But because DH and I feel the reason we’re a full pay family is in part the experience and grit having jobs gave us, we encouraged them to work. Both chose to work from the age of 15 on, but the interesting thing was their choice of work and how they found the jobs.
When DH and I were growing up poor, we worked all sorts of jobs. Mostly jobs that were close to home so we could walk and very low skilled jobs because that’s what we could quickly get - and quickly replace - since time without a job sometimes meant no food. So our choices were made under pressure and with fear.
My kids have worked almost as much as DH and I did, with no gaps in unemployment but because they weren’t choosing with fear and pressure, they sought out and chose much better jobs than we ever had. They thought about what they wanted to do, what a job could give them and what they wanted… and ended up with better than minimum wage, interesting, enriching jobs. The only advantage they had (besides transportation since we’ll drive them anywhere within a 5 mile radius and they can take the bus for longer distance) is that they weren’t choosing out of fear, hunger or other pressure. It opened my eyes to the advantage people have when they have a little breathing room and they know they won’t starve or be evicted if they make a mistake.
Self reported academic record and/or test scores need only be validated for matriculants. From the college’s point of view, this is an advantage in reducing workload managing incoming transcripts and test scores.
Obviously, it would reduce revenue for TCB and ACT if more colleges used self reporting on application with official reports only for matriculants.
You are obfuscating the discussion by arguing against what was never claimed. Parental money does not buy achievement, but it does remove barriers and open opportunities to achievement. Not having parental money often makes it more difficult for a talented kid to show achievement. Do you disagree?
If parental money spent in support of giving kids various pre-college advantages does not matter, then parents with money should save it (to pay tuition later) by:
Living in a lower cost area with average public schools that they send their kids to.
Not spending on tutoring, test prep, expensive travel sports, expensive extracurricular activities, etc.
But how many “upper middle class” parents do that?
No doubt that money has big impact, but should we be surprised? Isn’t that the “American Dream”? Parents work hard and provide their children opportunities that they may not have had. Better neighborhoods to grow up in, better schools, summer camps? I never had any of that…but my kids did.
Ok, @ucbalumnus , I will specify selective colleges that use holistic admissions. They don’t have to be super selective. For example, Penn State and Indiana ask for supplemental essays. Are they required? I don’t remember. But is it a good idea for kids to submit them? Probably. Colleges can use supplements to gauge interest. If they think a student will attend, they are probably more likely to admit.
The article is about eliminating barriers to kids applying to college. Yes, there will be disadvantaged students who will be deterred by filling out college applications. I don’t think what this article is advocating for is realistic though. There are a lot of kids whose parents are well-off who are deterred by writing supplements, and we know that some colleges are doing away with supplements to increase applications. I don’t think doing away with supplements full stop is going to benefit anyone except the college.
That’s hilarious. I sometimes wonder if prompts like these exist to amuse admissions officers who get tired of reading different versions of the same essays over and over. I imagine of them getting together and passing along their favorite photos or lists each week as a stress reliever!
Of course money can provide opportunities and experiences that help in the college admissions game. However, I’m pretty sure admissions officers can tell, even in a need-blind situation, which apps or parts thereof were likely born of privilege. It’s often easy to spot on the "chance me"t hreads here on CC, and we have less information about the student who is posting than admissions will.
This ignores the help that wealthier kids get when filling the applications. Part of the job of “college consultants” is to make sure that the students don’t write their applications the same way that they write their “chance me” posts on CC. That vanity project will sound like an organization which eliminated poverty from a three county area with the right wording. The College Consultants have been in the game as long as the AOs, and are working with a far smaller number of applications.
You grew up in a different time. Upward mobility, especially without a college degree, has stopped. Kids growing up in poverty do not have access to jobs which will allow them to make the kind of money which will allow them to provide their kids with any more opportunities than they had. Salaries for people without colleges degrees are lower than they were in the 1960s, while costs of housing, transportation, and healthcare have skyrocketed.
No matter how hard most poor people work, most will never be able to make enough money to get out of poverty and to give their kids a better life. The only way to improve one’s life is through a college degree, and that is an almost insurmountable barrier to the majority of the families in the bottom 20% by income.
While 90% of the oldest Baby Boomers made more money than their parents, only 70% or so of the youngest did, while only 60% of Gen-Xers do (didn’t change much over that generation). Upward mobility has halted entirely for Millennials, and has actually reversed.
The “American Dream”, as you describe it, is dead.
bingo, the American dream does not exist as it did in the middle of the 20th century, at least for the middle class. The income gap between the wealthiest and middle class has grown faster than the income gap between middle class and families in poverty.
That “vanity project” may not even pass muster. Who really believes a hs kid, roughly 13-17, eliminated a wide swath of poverty based on his own designs?
Imo, too many assume just being a college consultant makes them able to work wonders. (Take a look at some of their bios, often a lot of spin.) It still depends on their real experience/knowledge and many good ones work to help clients find realistic matches/safeties, not shoehorn them into some tippy top.
I have other ideas how we support low SES kids in their attempt to lift themselves. No, it’s not easy for just any kid with a hs diploma. “Just” managing to graduate hs isn’t always enough reason to head straight for college. Many will benefit, lift themselves above their parents’ disadvantages, by making choices other than auto assuming it’s got to be a college degree. The dream is not “dead,” when more factors are considered, while trades are strong, and in an era where entrepreneurial skills are valued.
I just want to offer a clarification (otherwise, I agree with you). It’s a (very) common misconception, even here in Texas, that causes a whole lot of consternation that the Texas ‘Top 10%’ statute only requires gpa (plus, you acknowledged the school course requirements). The statue actually requires that students meet the Texas Uniform Admissions requirements, which also requires the following:
Meeting or exceeding the College Boards or ACT 'college readiness' standards
Meeting, the "Distinguished Level of Achievement" State uniform requirements for course sequence and rigor (which also requires passing five STAAR EOC exams)
Be in the top 10% of your class (top 6% of UT Austin)
I’m only pointing this out, because it’s very common (here in Texas) for parents of higher SEC students who did not meet all of these requirements at the so-called “competitive schools” to cry foul, and resort to admonishing (hoping) the scores of lower SEC students who did meet these requirements who will “flunk out their first year, because they’re really not as prepared or wonderful” as their higher SEC student from the “competitive schools”.
To add to this-- the “American Dream” has never, in the history of this country, been an equal access proposition. No matter how hard some groups have worked, they were institutionally and legally barred from better pay, better housing, better education, social & legal justice, beneficial financial instruments, etc… Normal things that should have allowed typical, hard working, and reasonably earning families to not only prosper, but to gain access to higher education on a level playing field. Even today, many of those barriers persist to varying degrees, just disguised as something less offensive, or… more acceptable to the sensibilities of the ruling class.
Also, being in the very bottom SECs means working longer hours, usually at much more physically demanding jobs, without the ability, time, or resources to acquire the ‘extras’ that would better position their kids for access to college. It’s like being a day late, and a dollar short for… life. Penalty!
Money buys access to opportunities and the time to take advantage of them. It also buys access to the people who know what the right accomplishments are and how to appear to have the thinking skills colleges want.
My SIL and I both have children who have learning disorders. My SIL and her spouse are in the top 5% of income earners. We’re in the bottom 40%. Money bought them access to a well known selective private school that has the knowledge and resources to address their learning issues, private tutors who helped with homework every night, personalized test prep, and college counselors to advise them every step of the way.
It bought access to expensive ECs, pricey summer programs, trips to Europe, a live in babysitter, housekeeper, cook, yard people, trades people to do their home maintenance, and private agencies to care for aging parents. Their kids never had to do chores, so money bought them time to invest in studying and building ECs, and the people to guide them to the right types of things.
When it came time to apply to college my SIL’s kids and their private school friends had a wealth of experience to draw on to complete their apps. They were full pay, had well thought out resumes that took years and guidance to develop, and they had college counselors to help them package it all.
None of these kids went into the application process blind or alone, and it didn’t seem to occur to them that picking a college isn’t like buying a car. In their minds it seemed to be that you go see it, kick the tires so to speak, and make your choice. That’s a hugely different mindset than most kids have, and one that comes with privilege only money can buy.
Interesting data today from an EAB study (an enrollment management consulting firm) regarding the NACAC rule changes and potential college responses. A few highlights:
-23% of schools are considering recruiting students (incoming freshman) already committed to another school
-35% will recruit students currently enrolled (transfers)
-31% considering raising deposit
-33% identifying aid $ for winning back withdraws/making counteroffers
And maybe we will see more schools add an ED option…
-“The fact that schools may now offer incentives for early decision (ED) has made ED relevant to more institutions, outside of the highly selective group”
Of course these changes are so new, no one yet knows where all of this will be in a few years. Some admissions/enrollment management teams haven’t even discussed potential new policies/strategies in light of these changes, but will do so this spring/summer.
We live in a neighborhood with a lot of wealth and that doesn’t equal a large percentage of the kids going to elite universities really. Maybe only the top 5% of kids end up at a school considered T20. So, having money to spend on summer programs and tutors and expensive ECs doesn’t always translate into super high scores, GPAs, and competitive applicants for T20s. Parents can throw all of the money they want at a student but it won’t make a student competitive for elite schools unless that student is already self motivated inside and outside of school.
Unless your parents are mega-donors, money isn’t going to “guarantee” your admission to super selective colleges. However, it does greatly increase your chances if you’re among the merely-“qualified”.
We have twins and one twin applied to 30 schools (the other applied to almost 20)… I think we’re mostly done but I have completely gone bonkers!
Between nagging them to get another $#@ essay written, keeping up with multiple deadlines for each school (application, portfolio supplements, financial aid, honors, scholarships), each school having different ways to submit each of these items, many schools having multiple logins for different items (a separate finaid login from the application portal, etc), some schools IT departments just don’t seem to care and drop the ball because I get some type of SQL error when uploading tax documents, and many more, I live with this constant anxiety that we’ve missed something. I have my trusty spreadsheet that I completely go through every couple of days and I’m constantly catching an ‘oh crap, we forgot this’ item. This literally has been a full-time job since last August, once all the decisions are in I need a vacation!
Add to this the fact that each school thinks they are the center of the universe, it’s no wonder I’m jaded.