OK, I’ll probably regret this, but I’ll bite. Am going to be gone most of the day so won’t be able to participate in a further discussion. </p>
<p>I agree with my3girls. That line above sounds somewhat condescending or patronizing. It has the air of “don’t let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out”. It may or may not be meant to be diplomatic, but has the potential, especially with the tone in which it is delivered, to come off as supercilious, judgmental and closed rather than assertive (if the situation calls for assertiveness) but open. It doesnt sound like a sincere invitation to participate, but perhaps moreso that of a smackdown and commentary on the statement of the other person, which may be the intent. It can potentially come across as hostile or throwing down the gauntlet. It can come across as aggressive rather than assertive. If thats the goal, then fine. The message seems to be “I don’t think your comment has any merit, and my opinion is more important than yours”.</p>
<p>Am also not in agreement with that list of “rules”, but no matter.</p>
<p>Why? What is stopping the black person from trying to better himself, just like anyone else of any skin color? </p>
<p>No one is barring the door from finishing high school; no one is barring the door to community college; no one is barring the door to vocational schools; no one is barring the door to studying at the library; no one is barring the door to applying for any minimum wage job to gain experience; no one is barring the door from applying for every government program under the sun; and, no one is barring anyone from not having kids before even finding high school.</p>
<p>Maybe I missing something, but I just do not get this automatic disadvantage thing. I would think that such a poor black person showing initiative would get more help than anything else. </p>
<p>Many poor Asians who arrive and who cannot even speak English take several low wage jobs, finish high school and have the lowest dropout rates, live in the library studying, avoid government programs like the plague, attend college (with no money btw) and usually are not poor in less than one generation. There may be a lesson to be learned in there somewhere.</p>
<p>This may be the reverse of “check your privilege” at work. Poor Asians do not expect anything of privilege or expect help, so they just do it for themselves; obviously with help from a strong extended network. Since they expect no privilege for or of anything, that may provide one heck of a driving force to get out of their situation. </p>
<p>Poor blacks from the Caribbean and Africa exhibit the exact same behavior - out of poverty in one generation or less. </p>
<p>Is it possible that a person being poor, black and american has an expectation of help because they are american, which, in itself is a certain type of “innate privilege” and thus less personal effort is given to do the things that gets one out of the poor situation? I am no sociologist, but the actions of these four groups and the rate at which three groups escape poverty, while one group seems trapped in it is rather striking. Of relevance is all four groups are not white. What the three groups doing that the one group is not and why are the questions that should be examined.</p>
<p>Hmmmm . . . my friend who works at a large urban hospital in our city would dispute that. They are having issues with some of their clientele relying on their “strong extended network” to provide fraudulent health benefit cards on the idea that the staff won’t closely check or notice discrepancies in names and photo IDs. I would avoid blanket statements about both the sainted nature and degeneracy of ANY racial or ethnic group.</p>
<p>I’m not sure about anyone else’s point but I was simply trying to refute a previous poster who seemed to be making blanket statements about poor Asian immigrants and their industrious nature. Like any other group some are and some aren’t . . . or some are industrious within the law and some not if you prefer to look at it that way.</p>
<p>I believe that that largest obstacle for people to overcome (besides serious mental, physical disability, abuse), is being born to a young, single parent. Any race. Your odds of joining a gang, drug abuse, suicide, incarceration and poverty go up dramatically.</p>
<p>Looks like you believe that there is no significant racial discrimination against black people, such as teachers being more likely to assume that black students are unintelligent and not recommending them for advanced or honors courses, or young black males being much closer to the “criminal profile” threshold than young white males (in the eyes of police and others).</p>
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<p>Immigrants are self-selected as people with high levels of motivation (to move to another country) and may also be selected by the immigration rules (e.g. PhD students, skilled worker visas). That does not prevent them from being subject to racial discrimination, although, as people with relatively high levels of motivation and ability compared to the general population, they are more likely to work around such racial discrimination, or escape from poor situations despite racial discrimination (although they may have done better in the absence of racial discrimination).</p>
<p>It isn’t that I don’t get that, all other things being 100 % equal, it is, on average, easier to be white than black, even with the presence of certain programs to help minorities, which only reach a small percentage of people in any case.</p>
<p>The thing is that things are NEVER 100 % equal, which is what makes it unseemly to focus on race as if that disadvantage takes precedence over everything else. Most people have a bunch of advantages and a bunch of disadvantages. Some advantages and disadvantages will have to do with race or gender, but others will have to do with level of physical attractiveness, personality type, intelligence level, family background, etc. Of course some people will be relatively more advantaged than others, but there’s no need to keep score. That’s what gets us into absurdities like “Well, the person you’re talking about spent four years in a concentration camp, lost his whole family, and came to America with no money and limited English skills, but he had white, male privilege”! Which is true, but also an absurd basis by which to suggest this person was in any meaningful way advantaged, as a whole, over members of certain present-day minority groups. </p>
<p>Honestly, if we kept the discussion to economic privilege, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. It is possible to overcome economic disadvantages, but the odds aren’t good and poverty really is something that affects you every day in almost every aspect of your life, including, whether or not you have access to the quality education that might give you a chance of building a better life. By comparison, race and gender are small potatoes. Strangely, however, economic privilege isn’t a major part of the conversation - possibly because most of the people involved in it don’t themselves come from poverty. </p>
<p>The fact that the evidence of racial “privilege” most often discussed on this forum, was whether or not one will be followed while shopping, was interesting to me. While I do not mean to minimize how awful it must be to be treated as “suspect” when you are just trying to buy a pair of jeans, simply because of the color of your skin, I am sure this does not happen to all black people at all retail stores, and I am sure it happens to some non-black people at some retail stores. Being followed due to your race is neither universal nor unique to a particular race, but it may, on average, happen more often to blacks than others.</p>
<p>All the more reason to shop online, I suppose. Plus you don’t have to hassle with transportation, since poor people don’t generally have cars and it is a PITA to schlep all your purchases around by bus.
All you gotta do is get yourself to the library or community center computers.</p>
<p>Expanding on my post: I imagine that a white male covered in visible tattoos, who looks like a skin-head and reeks of pot is more likely to be followed than a courteous black man dressed in a suit. The point being, that the “white male privilege” only applies if you are the <em>right</em> type of white male. </p>
<p>The worst criminals in the history of the US have been white males wearing suits. So much of this thread smacks of denialism. A light-hearted look, courtesy of The Daily Show:</p>
<p>“The worst criminals in the history of the US have been white males wearing suits. So much of this thread smacks of denialism. A light-hearted look, courtesy of The Daily Show:”</p>
<p>If that is true, what does that have to do with anything being discussed? Except to show us how terrible some white males are?</p>
<p>I’m not sure one can say one is necessarily more disadvantageous than the other, especially considering both factors tend to mix and piggyback off of in practice.</p>
<p>One illustration of this in recent US political history is how many conservative politicians during the era of Jim Crow and into the present have used this very factor to garner support from many poor Whites for policies ranging from maintaining segregation to fighting to reduce/eliminate social spending once they had to start including racial minorities into that spending. That and the continuing popularized stereotype of welfare recipients being Black “welfare queens” from a conservative politician’s political campaign when in actuality, they are about even with White recipients:</p>
<p>The latter is ironic considering many of those very politicians were staunch supporters of such social spending when it was mostly/exclusively directed towards White constituents. </p>
<p>It also ignores the fact many Whites, especially those of older generations still have trouble accepting the concept of racial equality…including poor Whites. In fact, resentment by poor Whites about this is a factor discussed among both American politics scholars and political campaign researchers seeking to either understand or take advantage of this factor. </p>
<p>A good example of this is the creation of political campaigns like the Black “Welfare Queens” to tap into that impulse in the same way TV shows like “Beevis and Butthead” were successful in their respective times. They all make their respective audiences feel better and even superior about themselves as they could say to themselves “At least I"m not Black” in the same ways families/individuals could say “At least I’m not like Beevis & Butthead”.</p>
<p>This mentality was a reason why Nixon’s “Southern Strategy” was so effective as even LBJ admitted in his own words when he said his party will lose the south for at least a generation because he signed the Civil Rights Act during the early-mid-'60s. </p>
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<p>Shopping online using library computers may not be feasible. Many libraries restrict use of library computers to discourage their use for that purpose ranging from strict time limits to blocking online shopping sites as they may be concerned the online shopper may be taking a library computer away from someone who needs it for library/research or job hunting purposes.</p>
<p>Not to mention doing online shopping on a public computer is a risky proposition considering the higher chances of having one’s credit/debit card and financial information being eavesdropped on by undetected viruses/malware, by nearby patrons up to no good, or simply forgetting to close the web browser and log off after one’s finished. </p>
<p>Especially considering many public libraries do not always have the adequate budget and/or trained IT staff to maintain all computers so they are functioning and virus/malware-free. </p>
<p>Bay, racial profiling of shoppers, people walking down the street, driving in certain neighborhoods, and so on has been well documented in many parts of the country (including “tolerant” NYC). It is a huge issue in my community. Of course the extreme example of a white skinhead guy is likely to draw suspicion over the black businessman. But it happens even with college kids being asked for ID on the bus, or people shopping at the local craft store.</p>
<p>I didn’t deny that it happens, sally305. I said racial profiling isn’t unique to blacks, and that with regard to white males, the “white male privilege” doesn’t necessarily apply, if you aren’t the right type of white male.</p>