Romani- over 6000 students in your high school? I’m not sure that can be true.
What would you think if the school instituted “no cut AP calculus” and let any parent who wanted to enroll their child - regardless or grade, prerequisite skills, or ability? Imagine there were 48 students in a classroom made for 30, so the students had to take turns sitting in a desk vs standing in the back of the class. The teacher would have to slow down the pace of class to make sure everyone heard and was able to move on, and the kids who deserved to be in the class are told they’re just going to have to be patient while everyone else catches up. In the end, some kids will never be able to reach their full potential, because the teacher wasn’t able to cover all the materials, or provide them with extra help on the one section they needed it on.
Or what if the school decided not to offer AP calculus at all because not everyone has the ability/grades/test scores to handle it? Instead, they only offer regular calculus and everyone has to take it. The kids who were supposed to be in AP calculus will now be helping the kids that were supposed to be in pre-Calc to bring them up to speed and the class will have to progress together.
Both of those scenarios sound ridiculous.
My kids have all been cut from things they lacked the talent for. It hurts. It’s extremely hard to watch as a parent. I know everyone likes to tell kids they can be whatever they want to be, but the truth is that there are limits in life. My daughter didn’t make any of the top club volleyball teams. She loves volleyball, and she’s pretty good at it. But she’s short. She’s too short to even play libero on a D1 team so the top teams wouldn’t take her. At some point children have to learn that not everyone gets to do everything they want to do in life, and learn to find things they want to that they can do.
Michael Jordan was cut from his high school varsity team:
"In fact, only a year after joining the team, as a tenth grader, he was cut from the varsity team. But this only pushed him to work harder at perfecting his game. As he later said on his Web site, “I think that not making the Varsity team drove me to really work at my game, and also taught me that if you set goals, and work hard to achieve them-the hard work can pay off.”
Actually the private school my kids attended did stop all academic awards like honor roll and math awards, honor society, etc because it made the non academic crowd feel badly. Don’t worry, the entire school still attended every season sports awards during the school day. And yes, we transferred the kids out of there.
We actually do have no-cut courses.
If a school is big enough, people are separated by ability (which can also be done in no-cut sports). If not, everyone more or less takes the same classes regardless of ability. But we don’t tell kids they can’t take math if they can’t do AP Calc.
I think it’s important that we not limit children’s opportunities in public schools, which are paid for by their parents’ tax dollars, based on the ability to pay. Winning a spot on a high school team because your parents could afford 10 years of pay to play team membership, private coaching, clinics, camps, and tournaments isn’t as much a sign of skill as a sign of privilege. How are low income students supposed to compete? And why should they be satisfied with bouncing a ball against a wall or walking on a homemade balance beam in their backyard?
“My kids have all been cut from things they lacked the talent for. It hurts. It’s extremely hard to watch as a parent. I know everyone likes to tell kids they can be whatever they want to be, but the truth is that there are limits in life”
And there are limits–but most of those limits are high school or maybe college based. In the REAL world, you can continue to pursue what you love. On your terms.
But there are still only 10 boys/12 girls on the field at one time. About 15 players get to play and the other 50-100 never see the field, probably don’t travel with the team. A team of 60 is not fun to be on if you are #22 or #31, and certainly not if you are #59.
An average college team has about 35 players on it, a high school varsity team maybe 30. That’s still half the kids who never see the field. My daughter’s college team has 22, with only about 15 used in a game. When they get about 10 goals ahead, the coach will sub, but the starters don’t want to give up their time on the field either. There are kids on her team who have played less than 10 minutes ALL SEASON. Why do they stay with the team? Well, they like winning (even if someone else is getting the credit) and they are going to the NCAA championship, but I think it is mostly that they hold out hope they will get to play. They will not get in the game.
My high school happens to be a lacrosse ‘big fish’ and for a couple of years fielded two varsity teams, two jv teams and a freshman team for boys. That meant about 150 boys could play of 1700 boys at the school. It didn’t work very well. It forced kids to decide (or coaches) if they should be #15 on the ‘real’ varsity team and get to play sometimes, or be #3 on the B team and be a starter. Being on the B team meant you wouldn’t win the state championship, which the A team does most of the time. The school and athletic conference has to make a schedule where the A team played the top high school teams, but the B played an entirely different set of schools. The rivalries weren’t there and no one cared about the B team. The JV teams were even worse to try to schedule as the two JV teams were better than most of the varsity team at other schools so they couldn’t get a good competitive schedule going.
Just didn’t work. The school went back to varsity, jv, and freshman teams. There are plenty of opportunities for other who just want to play to join summer leagues or private clubs. There are some sports where kids can’t just start playing in high school and expect to be the same level as kids who have been playing since they were 5.
“And there are limits–but most of those limits are high school or maybe college based. In the REAL world, you can continue to pursue what you love. On your terms.”
Only if we’re talking sports. It seems like there are lots of opportunities for recreational sports pursuits as an adult. But the rest of life has limits. I can’t be an astronaut because I have had extreme motion sickness my whole life. The amount of a mortgage I can take out is limited by my financial situation; there are certain neighborhoods I can’t live in. There are hundreds additional examples I could give you because life is full of limits.
So this “sport” which literally exists to cheer on a different sport(s), wants to keep kids from being on the team? LOL.
How about a hierarchy of skills, say, JV and varsity. And frosh. And competitive (aka gymnasts) or whatever. But anyone who wants to put on the outfit and cheer for the boys can?
If anything is fully funded under the school budget (sports, AP classes, debate team) it should be open to all. If that means the budget has to be stretched to make intramural teams or “B” teams then so be it. If the parents of the kids who make the cuts are welling to shell out to support that team financially then let them do it. It should not be everyone’s burden that only a few can enjoy. I am sure the money spent on a team of 15 basketball players can fund another AP Calculus class.
Romani - was 6K a typo? The largest MI high school looks to be around 3K.
D1 had to play a varsity sport in high school according to her school’s rule. She chose what she thought was a safest sport to play and it was tennis. She never really played,she just looked good in her outfit while pretending to run around the court. It was all good until the coach told her that she was playing at an away game. I had to step in to get her exempt from playing sports because of ballet (many sports movements were not good for her ankles). I asked D1 if the coach realized she couldn’t play. D1 said she looked good in her outfit (credible) and they were short of players. We still laugh about it.
In this particular set of facts, the school went from 6 cheer leaders on the black team to 10 on that team. Seems like there was room for all with few negative consequences. Maybe there would be a different result if 50 more students were eager to be cheerleaders, but with so few, and plenty of room, why not offer the experience to all seeking It? Maybe they will make up in enthusiasm what they lack in tumbling talent.
The single most impressive thing I saw in high school athletics was when I ran into a young man I knew exiting the tennis coach’s office. He said he knew the coach had to make cuts,and he volunteered to be cut. I was surprised, as he was a solid tho not spectacular player, and asked why he did that. He replied that he enjoyed tennis, but that he was also on the football team and got a lot out of it, and he had other activities and awards too. For some of the kids, tennis was the only thing they had and they really needed it. He didn’t want to take that from them.
So everyone has to be on a mediocre team or not have a varsity team at all because a few kids who may never have spent one second learning the skills of a game now want to try it in high school? If 20 parents are willing to pay extra for a sport but one really good player can’t afford to pay $200 to be on the basketball team, that student has to play on the newly formed intramural team?
California publics have a very large ‘pay to play’ fees for its high school teams and activities. Leaves a lot of kids out of sports, band, anything with a fee to travel like MUN. The budgets aren’t being stretched, they don’t exist so only those who can pay can play.
My kids went to a school where almost anyone could take an AP class. Made for some pretty bad AP instruction because things were taught at a snail’s pace and most of the material was not covered. Everyone should not be in every AP class, on the debate team, get a role in the play.
The article linked in post #0 was very short on detail.
Was the complaint due to a perception that the selection process was corrupt or political, rather than skill-based?
@ucbalumnus A google search will bring you to this article with an embedded link to the letter the school district released on the matter. If you are interested in the topic.
Again you shouldn’t change the rules midstream - we had this happen in middle school cheer (go ahead and shake your head at the crazy) and no, noone really suffered but it didn’t feel fair to those who had scored better and they (both girls and Moms) certainly didn’t welcome those who didn’t make the initial cut - everyone knew whose Mom complained. Sitting in the stands - there were two sets of parents. It was pretty “mean girls” and could have been avoided if the decision was made BEFORE tryouts and not after.