<p>golubb_u, if supply-demand dictates that the price of an engineer should fall, why is the average starting salary increasing?</p>
<p>LOL, epoch… I was gonna say, maybe Golubb should write up his typical post and put it up on the 'net somewhere, so he could just paste in a hyperlink to whatever thread he’s decided to ■■■■■, and then we can just scroll past if we don’t want to spend our time arguing with a broken (and unsubstantiated) record. ;)</p>
<p>Golubb,</p>
<p>Don’t confuse the IT industry’s problems and risks with that of engineers just because you can lump both categories into a “technical” area.</p>
<p>However, I don’t think you’ll listen to what I have to say because your so absolutely convinced that any technical area is a wrong track to take while we can all “just as easily go med school and be doctors and make much more money and have much more stable jobs”…That’s just your mentality Golubb. I don’t think anyone can change that. It’s not even worth my time to criticize you.</p>
<p>This is a really good thread, i have to postpone my responses to Sakky’s posts at least until the end of the week, got an english paper due in about 8 hours. right now its half past midnight</p>
<p>outsourcing and whether or not engineering is a good undergrad major or career choice is a really good topic of debate</p>
<p>awesome contributions everyone</p>
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</p>
<p>True enough, so then why don’t they all run off and do that then? As you can see from the Berkeley data I presented, why are those Film Studies guys making a median of only 24k? Are you saying they’re being dumb? Remember, these are people who graduated from Berkeley, not just the average Schmoe on the street. </p>
<p><a href=“http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2002Majors.stm[/url]”>http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2002Majors.stm</a></p>
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<p>First off, I don’t see what is so ‘wrong’ with US corporations handing off jobs to foreign countries. You forget that plenty of foreign companies employ Americans. For example, Siemens employs about 60,000 Americans for various roles - engineering, sales, marketing, and so forth. Siemens is not an American company, it’s a German company. So does that mean that German companies are handing out jobs to Americans like food stamps? Nokia has a fairly large research operation in Silicon Valley, employing many Americans. Nokia is a Finnish company. If it’s such a bad thing for American companies to be hiring foreigners, then it’s equally bad for foreign companies to be hiring Americans. So then Siemens should fire all 60,000 of the Americans on the payroll, because those Americans are taking away jobs from Germans. </p>
<p>Second of all, while obviously some engineering jobs will be outsourced, that is a very far cry from saying that all, or even most of them will. You keep citing the fact that labor is cheap in China or India, yet y’all have seemingly conveniently forgotten the fact that labor is not the only cost involved in running any engineering operation. Many engineering operations, notably things like microchip fabs and major manufacturing centers like automobiles, are extremely capital-intensive. A new microchip wafer fab costs more than $3 billion to build. Labor costs are nothing more than a rounding error, compared to the total capital costs required to manufacture that chip. Hence, there is no strong incentive for Intel to move a wafer fab to China or India to arbitrage labor costs, because labor costs are such a small piece of the pie anyway. </p>
<p>Obviously more labor-intensive parts of the wafer manufacturing process like the chip assembly/testing process can and have moved to Asia, but that’s as it should be. Americans don’t want those jobs anyway. These are low-end manual jobs done by low-end factory workers. What American wants to spend all day, every day, sitting at an assembly line soldering and testing chips? Certainly no college-educated Americans that I know. </p>
<p>By the same token, there is basically no incentive to move, say, oil refineries or chemical plants overseas. Why? Again, because labor costs are such a tiny fraction of the total cost of oil refining or chemical processing, compared to the cost of the plant itself. </p>
<p>The other major part that tends to eat up savings costs is transportation. Sure, you might be able to make stuff in Asia cheaper, but does that mean that you can sell that stuff for cheaper? Well, if you’re selling to Americans, you have to add in shipping costs. Again, this tends to eat up part of the savings that you might get from lower labor costs. Shipping costs become extremely important in industries with rapid product cycles and unpredictable market demand. This is why it is difficult to run oil refineries overseas profitably, because the fact is, the demand for various petroleum products changes quickly, mostly due to weather (when the weather is cold, more heating oil is consumed, when the weather is nice, more people drive hence consuming more gasoline). Tankers and cargo ships take about 2-3 months to get from Asia to the West Coast. You don’t want to be making a bunch of heating oil and loading it on a California-bound tanker, only to find out that, 2 months later when the tanker arrives, your distributors don’t want heating oil, they want gasoline. </p>
<p>That isn’t to say that there won’t be some outsourcing. Obviously there will be. But the fact is, Americas have met this challenge before, and can meet it again, if they want to. When the Japanese began to sell better and more reliable cars, American mechanical engineers didn’t just fold their tents and go home. They didn’t all just quit to become cops and firemen. They adapted their skills. I don’t see why Americans can’t do the same this time. </p>
<p>Look, the fact is, both America and Europe have been high-cost places to do business for decades now. So why haven’t all jobs left America and Europe? Because simply put, while American and European workers have been expensive, but also highly productive. People forget that the first country to become modern and industrialized was not the US, it was England. It was in England where the Industrial Revolution happened first. The foundation of the Industrial Revolution consisted of rapid improvements in textile manufacturing. England became the textile capital of the world, decimating the Indian textile industry which ruled the industry at the time. Yeah, that’s right, in the late 1700’s, it was India that ruled the textile industry, and it was England that snatched the crown away. This despite the fact that it cost several times more to hire an English textile worker than an Indian textile worker. Hence, expensive English workers were taking the jobs of cheap Indian workers. Why did that happen? Because the English worker was also far more productive. If it cost you 10 times more to hire an English worker, but he produced 15 times more output, then it made sense to localize production in England. And that’s exactly what happened. English factory workers were expensive, but also extremely productive. </p>
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</p>
<p>Oh, and you’re saying that VC’s never invested overseas before? That VC’s have never bypassed Silicon Valley before to fund a company overseas? I would argue that a significant portion of the Taiwanese, Korean, Singaporean, and Israeli high-tech industry that was built in the last 30 years were backed by American VC money. So now VC money is pouring to Shanghai and Bangalore, just like before, it was pouring to Taipei, Seoul, Singapore and Tel Aviv, causing many companies to start up there and not here. It wasn’t that long ago when Taiwan, S Korea, Singapore, and Israel were all poor countries. All of these countries also started out poor and used to compete mainly on low labor costs. Yet American engineers were doing OK while all this was happening. So what’s new? Why should it be any different this time? </p>
<p>Sure you are not going to take the position that VC’s should not be allowed to invest overseas. If you are, then to be fair, then you should also take the position that foreigners should not be allowed to invest in the US.</p>
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<p>I too find it ironic that on the one hand, Golubb goes around criticizing engineering because of outsourcing, yet on the other hand, he touts medicine as a good career path to undertake, apparently not knowing, or not wanting to know, that medicine can also be outsourced.</p>
<p>For example, the job of radiologists in reading Xrays and CT scans is already being outsourced to India. After all, a doctor in India can discover a broken bone in an Xray just as well as an American doctor can. You can read about it here. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6621014/[/url]”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6621014/</a>
<a href=“http://www.outsource2india.com/why_india/articles/radiology-information.asp[/url]”>http://www.outsource2india.com/why_india/articles/radiology-information.asp</a>
<a href=“Entertainment News, Celebrity News, Latest Movie News, Breaking News | Entertainment - Times of India”>Entertainment News, Celebrity News, Latest Movie News, Breaking News | Entertainment - Times of India;
<p>In the future, I would expect that the analysis and processing of the entire gamut of medical tests and diagnoses could be outsourced. Why not? Have your bloodwork results and your EKG’s sent to an overseas doctor for analysis. </p>
<p>But why stop there? What about ‘medical tourism’ - that is, getting elective surgerical procedures done overseas, especially if my insurance won’t cover the procedure? It could start from purely optional procedures like plastic surgery and extend to procedures that are necessary, but not imminent, like hip replacements, or ACL surgery. In fact, it has already started. </p>
<p><a href=“Best ERP Service Providers in India - ACG Infotech”>Best ERP Service Providers in India - ACG Infotech;
<a href=“Yale Global | Yale and the World”>Yale Global | Yale and the World;
<a href=“http://us.rediff.com/money/2003/dec/06health.htm[/url]”>http://us.rediff.com/money/2003/dec/06health.htm</a></p>
<p>For example, according to Wikipedia: “The cost savings are enormous. For example, for the same price as a week long vacation for two in Hawaii that includes airfare and boarding & lodging, a couple can travel to the natural and lush beauty of Kerala on India’s southeast coast to include airfare, boarding & lodging, personal tour guide/concierge, and LASIK corrective surgery for two. The average cost of private heart surgery in the United States is $50,000. That same operation with comparable rates of success and complications costs only $10,000 in the finest and most state-of-the-art hospital in Bombay. A bone marrow transplant that costs $250,000 in the U.S. costs only $25,000 in India. Large price disparities such as these exist across the board for numerous medical and surgical procedures. And because of favorable currency exchange rates for medical tourists, the costs associated with accommodations, food, shopping, and sight-seeing are similarly very favorable.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism</a></p>
<p>The point is, I find it ironic in the extreme to bash engineering because of its purported vulnerability to outsourcing, yet have no problem in sanguinely recommending medicine as a career path, conveniently ignoring the prospect of medical outsourcing. Hey, outsourcing is outsourcing.</p>
<p>sakk, in that link u provided, only 6 people provided salary info, i think there are more people graduating with that degree.</p>
<p>and also sakk, foreign med school requirements are almost always lower than US requirements, its not easy for someone from other countries to come into the US to be a doctor without having gone to an US/canadian med school. They have to be licensed in US. And doctors licensed in US working in india… i don’t think they make much less than doctors in the US. this is not the case for engineers.</p>
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</p>
<p>There aren’t that many Film Studies guys to begin with, so obviously there aren’t going to be that many that will provide salary information.</p>
<p>But it doesn’t matter. Look at the salaries of Film Studies guys nationwide and I think we can both agree that those salaries are going to be lower than the engineers nationwide. I don’t think this is a topic that can be seriously debated. Engineeers make more, on average, than Film Studies majors. So I posit the question again - would you rather be a Film Studies major? </p>
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<p>And if you read the links I provided, they address precisely this topic. No foreign doctor has to come into the country for medical outsourcing to occur. You think that Americans are the only people in the world who can perform medical procedures, and other countries don’t have competent doctors?</p>
<p>First of all, medical tourists are people who choose to have their procedures done overseas, and if you choose to have your procedure done overseas, then obviously American licensiture doesn’t apply. For example, if I want to fix my eyes by flying to another country for LASIK, then it doesn’t matter that the foreign doctors performing it aren’t American-certified. The procedure is going to happen on foreign soil. What if I have some lifethreatening condition and I need some extremely expensive surgery, but I can’t pay for it to be done in the US and my insurance can’t or won’t cover it? I’d very seriously consider having myself flown to another country to have it done cheaply It’s better to try that and have a chance at surviving than staying in the US, not get the procedure, and die for sure. Hence, I won’t care if the doctors who operate on me are American-certified or not. All I care about is whether I am going to able to afford the operation. </p>
<p>Second of all, as far as medical diagnoses involving foreign (non US-licensed) doctors, consider this:</p>
<p>"A division of Bangalore-based Wipro Ltd., an Indian technology giant, is doing radiology readings for a handful of U.S. hospitals in a pilot project using 12 Indian doctors who are neither U.S. licensed nor board certified.</p>
<p>Despite regulations that doctors be licensed in virtually every state they serve, a Wipro official says this collaborative arrangement is legitimate.</p>
<p>They do not do full reads, they do not pass medical judgment, and send only a preliminary report back to the United States, said Wipros Supratim Sarkar."</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6621014/[/url]”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6621014/</a></p>
<p>Hence, I expect an entirely new business model to crop out. You might have one American-certified doctor, either in the US or India, providing the actual medical judgment, and you have a bunch of cheap foreign doctors doing all the gruntwork of analyzing the raw data. Bottom line - instead of needing a whole bunch of US-certified doctors, you only need one. I can also see a business model of Indian-American doctors who have been trained in US hospitals going back to India and starting their own outsourcing clinics. These guys will hold American certification because they worked in the US. So they do the very specific tasks that require American certification. However, every other medical task will be performed by cheap Indian doctors. Again, bottom line - less need for American-certified doctors. Instead of needing a whole bunch, you only need 1 or 2. </p>
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<p>Wrong. Consider this quote:</p>
<p>"According to the November issue of Diagnostic Imaging, while the average annual salary for US radiology positions was $317,000 in 2002-3, the Indian radiologist earns the equivalent of $21,000 annually. "</p>
<p><a href=“Entertainment News, Celebrity News, Latest Movie News, Breaking News | Entertainment - Times of India”>Entertainment News, Celebrity News, Latest Movie News, Breaking News | Entertainment - Times of India;
<p>Some of the doctors doing work in India are actualy US certified. Undergrad in India, med school in the US, practice here for a while, then move back and start up there. A US certified doctor (.: good to attract American business away from non-US certs) performing procedures for less money than in the US.</p>
<p>Same thing in the tech sector. I have a few relatives who have moved over to start divisions of their company in Bangalore, etc. US trained, lived here for ~15-20years…then go back ‘home’ ;).</p>
<p>Jeffl, why do you regret choosing engineering so much at umich?</p>
<p>What year are you? Wasn’t it possible to switch to something like business (econ.) if you wanted to?</p>
<p>i’m a junior in fall. its not just me, a lot of people i know are regretting their decision, but its not like the biggest mistake u know. but i wouldn’t do engineering if i had to start over. the best time to switch to lsa would be in freshman year, after that u will most likely have to take more classes and graduate a little later. and personally i would never come out of state to goto lsa in the first place.</p>
<p>That means you have two more years left before graduation. Why don’t you try getting a minor in business before you graduate? If possible, maybe you’d be interested in staying back at UMich for an extra year and getting a double major in business. UMich is a top school for both engineering and business. Since you have two years left (and possibly 2.5 or 3 if you’re willing to stay back some timer), I think it would be in your best interest in getting a major or at least a minor in an additional business degree.</p>
<p>Instead of just saying no, look into it and ask your advisors to see if its possible. Sleep on it for a couple weeks before the school year starts. I think this will psychologically make you feel MUCH better. It will cure or drastically reduce your regrets about choosing engineering. I can guarantee you that.</p>
<p>Another option is choose as B.S.E - Bachelor of science in general engineering. This undergraduate will enable you to do practically anything. You can go to graduate school and receive a masters degree in any type of engineering - or - go to med. school, law school, business school, etc… If this option is chosen, even if you do persue engineering later in life, your not restricted solely to your specific type of engin. that you did in your underg. years. But I don’t know for sure if UMich offers a gen. eng. degree.</p>
<p>Jeff you won’t regret it when you reap in the harvest applying for full-time jobs. It’s such a versatile field that you can almost apply to any jobs out there, as well as law or med school in the future. I regretted it and cursed myself everyday my first three years, but am so thankful now with what the engineering degree did for me.</p>
<p>“I regretted it and cursed myself everyday my first three years, but am so thankful now with what the engineering degree did for me.”</p>
<p>what did it do for you???</p>
<p>
by running water</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly believe it would be very difficult for an experienced engineer who has been laid off to get another job. There are two main reasons for my belief.<br>
1.) The cost of an experienced, say 50 year old engineer is very expensive probably at least 4 or 5 times the cost of an engineer in India with similar experience. (in case you didnt know, some companies in America force the engineers to train their Indian replacements, so that after the American engineer is laid off those, the Indians will go back to their own country and receive outsourcing work.</p>
<p>2.) The ever increasing cost of health care in America, do a google on how much a health care plan would cost for a 50 year old male with a family of four in America. That has to be subsidized somewhat by the company. Thats why it makes so much sense for companies to hire fresh engineers constantly, theyre overall cost to their employer is much less than an older engineer. Some of you might say that older engineers provide valuable experience and knowledge to the company, true but that experience & knowledge is constantly being passed on to fresh college graduates & the Indians that will eventually replace all of them.</p>
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<p>First of all we should drop the discussion of the Fine arts major completely, I never advised anyone to become a fine arts major. I believe fine art is more entertainment than necessity. Any science major will be in more demand and therefore be paid much more than fine arts major. So lets drop that shall we. Now I wanted to compare other practical majors with engineering. Some that cross my mind are mathematics, biology, biochemistry, physics, business, economics, pre law, pre med, nursing, administration of justice, accounting, and etc… From first hand experience I know that UC Davis just built a new genome building, UC Davis also received I believe 113 million in federal funds a few years ago. The funding for biology related science is just skyrocketing now. Hell look at the stock splits for all the biotech companies out there (especially in San Diego). Although we have mapped out the human genome, It still needs to be analyzed and understood. Various sources have predicted it will take at least 30 years before we achieve the current projections of being able to grow viable human organs, create designer babies, analyze which genes are responsible for human defects, grow vaccinated crops. We have so much information to process in human genetics that I would not be worried about the job security of talented young individuals planning on a career in any area of the biotechnology industry. Why dont you take a look at the stock value of Genentech? </p>
<p>To analyze a bit deeper, as to why any outsourcing, if it will even happens, will not affect the research and development of human genetics or human biology, is that India and China while theyre developing at a very quick rate, theyre nowhere near the technological advancement of America in regards to the human genome project research. They just do not have enough qualified individuals over there to conduct research or even teach. Hell where do you think most of their university professors are educated? In the united states, that is where.</p>
<p>Outsourcing of engineering work to India and china is so easy, because to do coding all you need is a computer and an internet connection. Mechanical engineering, autocad for drafting, they already have been doing all of the production in china for the past 20 years easily. Also most of the ground breaking research has been done in engineering already, think about it, transistors, Pentium processors. Pretty much most of engineering today is just making more efficient and newer models of computers, applications. No groundbreaking research is being conducted into engineering anymore. (im sure there are exceptions, but try comparing it to the ground breaking research in the human genome project or the stem cell development project going on in California) **** there is absolutely no comparison between the funding and demand for research and development between biology and engineering. Like I said before salaries and job placement are contingent upon supply and demand. Demand for tech services and engineering in general is decreasing and vice versa for the biotech sector.</p>
<p>So all in all, there is definitely secure job placement & room for advancement in other careers besides engineering. Also if you majored in a bio field you can no doubt apply to medical school, become a nurse, physicians assistant, or also become a researcher, or go work for Genentech. I also forgot to mention that w/ a chemistry degree, you can become a pharmacist w/ grad school of course.</p>
<p>To anticipate what sakky might say, engineering is still a solid undergrad degree, true that it provides great intellectual stimulation and challenge, but you will definitely need a graduate degree to stay competitive in that field. So I seriously doubt that any engineer w/out at least a masters degree staying competitive from now on. if you just have a bachelors degree in engineering, your job will be outsourced very quickly within 5 years.</p>
<p>Take a look at the following links especially the one with an asterix next to it, it even says the entry level positions are not available anymore. </p>
<p><a href=“http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C08/C08Links/www.dur.ac.uk/~dbl0www/Bioinformatics/sciencereview.html[/url]”>http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C08/C08Links/www.dur.ac.uk/~dbl0www/Bioinformatics/sciencereview.html</a>
<a href=“http://www.galtglobalreview.com/careers/career_biotechnology.html[/url]”>http://www.galtglobalreview.com/careers/career_biotechnology.html</a>
<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/20/tech/main702911.shtml[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/20/tech/main702911.shtml</a>
<a href=“Would you recommend engineering to a recent high school graduate? - Where is Engineering Going In The Next 5 Years - Eng-Tips”>Would you recommend engineering to a recent high school graduate? - Where is Engineering Going In The Next 5 Years - Eng-Tips;
(link directly above this is a thread by current engineers on whether or not they would recommend engineering as a profession to a recent high school grad)</p>
<p>*** <a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/27/tech/main596221.shtml[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/27/tech/main596221.shtml</a></p>
<p>I have just pointed out that biotechnology is a booming sector, viable and secure alternative to engineering as an undergrad degree.</p>
<p>Next post I will move on to discuss the alternatives of choosing a business, prelaw, premed, and economics degree, & etc </p>
<p>“I regretted it and cursed myself everyday my first three years, but am so thankful now with what the engineering degree did for me.”</p>
<p>what did it do for you??? go to med school?</p>
<p>no, If i did that I would be cursing for another 8-10 years while in debt.</p>
<p>It gave me many different career choices when I was graduating, therefore I had the privilege to pick and choose which field I wanted to get into. The same cannot be said for most other undergrad majors out there, at least not for the first few years after graduation.</p>
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<p>I already answered the biology part, now on to the physics or mathematics. A major in physics is probably the most diverse background you can get in the physical sciences. Many engineers in fact actually have a degree in physics. You can go directly into the engineering field w/ just a bachelors in physics, though it would be inadvisable. I for one might end up taking a BME minor in addition to my physics degree. Most physics majors if they decide to pursue engineering go on to graduate school. If you can do physics then you can do engineering. Now to the career as a physicist or teacher, although the road to becoming a tenured physics or math teacher is hard, so is the road to a secure well paying engineering job that is insulated from outsourcing and the effects of outsourcing. Hell in engineering even if you dont become outsourced, the effects of outsourcing will drive down your salary and health care benefits. I will guarantee you that if you major in comp sci, EE, ME and only have a bachelors you WILL get laid off within 7- 10 years. In case you didnt know I have many uncles that were laid off in San jose, CA (silicon valley). There is a lot of wishful thinking about the outsourcing phenomenon about how there will always be jobs for them, or the newest fad, engineering management. To be in management you must have someone to manage, its getting harder since jobs are shrinking in america, so unless you speak hindi or mandarin or plan on working in china or India, you probably will not be in as much demand as you thought.</p>
<p>Back to math or physics, if you truly love math or physics but also want secure job prospects, sorry to disappoint you but the competition is fierce for employment, but the competition is also just as fierce for engineering positions. So to evaluate by the long term career stability, Id say the challenges to find AND KEEP a job is very similar engineering and physics or math. So do not be dissuaded by anybody telling you that math or phsyics is not practical, **** neither is a career in engineering. Also some people might know engineers in the tech industry that are employed, then I ask you are they full time employees with benefits? Do they have company subsidized health insurance or do they pay out of pocket? That is a serious consideration when you have a family with children. You do not want lapses in health insurance when your children need vaccinations and you cant afford it because you do not have a full time job w/health benefits.</p>
<p>Now for the people who are considering business. Business is a field that is expected to grow as fast as average according to govt. statistics. (google it, Im too lazy to copy and paste this link) Accountants will also be in average demand. Sure these positions can definitely be outsourced but so will engineering. Like Ive said there are other fall back options, be a cop, nurse, or a PA. There are supplemental sources of income, (rental, stocks & bonds). The most immediate benefit of business vs. engineering is the time required to complete the degree. Also business majors have more electives and time to take classes outside their core curriculum. Thus becoming more well rounded, something I wish I could do. It would help my next post when I talk about economics and engineering. I have never had time to take an economics course. So if you major in business, true that you might have an even harder time than an engineering major in finding a job, but you will become more well rounded because of your hopefully broad education. Again you should always strive for a graduate degree, go for your MBA. Learn a foreign language, that will definitely make your competitive, especially Chinese or hindi. </p>
<p>Prelaw majors out there, you can always work for the government, while it is hard to get into a top law school, it is not necessary to graduate from a top law school if you just want to work for the government. Keep in mind that most BIG law firms want 2200-2500 billable hours yearly. I want family time and if I ever became a lawyer I would most likely work for the govt. Majored in poli sci, go to law school, run for city council when you get out. It is possible. I assume most ppl reading this post are good at math and science, therefore have good analytical skills, somethinig that is valued in a lawyer. Engineers have the highest scores in law school. So if youre reading this, youll probably do well in law school because youre naturally gifted at analytical thinking relative to other non engineering able people.</p>
<p>I think Ive went on a few times on premeds already so ill keep it short. Premed majors can go on to grad school, nursing, PA, pharmaceuticals, biotech, research, and even possibly medical school. To what sakky said about radiologist demand decreasing, a simple solution is not to become a radiologist. Choose a specialty that requires physical proximity to the customer (patient), so that it can never be outsourced. Also about the medical tourism, it will be a while before that becomes mainstream. it needs to rampant enough, like outsourcing of tech in engineering. It will be a very long time before that happens, (my opinion of course). Some people dont have the time to travel to India to do their surgery. What happens in automobile accidents, someone with a heart attack, think theyre going to wait for a plane ticket to India instead of going to a hospital within their own city? Most doctors are primary care doctors. If youre in primary care, guess what youll be safe from outsourcing. Babyboomer generation is just about to retire within 10 years, plenty of job security for doctors. Think about the last time you heard about a doctor being laid off in America. Now think about the last time you heard about an engineer being laid off in America. Now think about the last time you heard of a doctor WORRYING about being laid off, now think of an engineer worrying about his job security. </p>
<p>There is no, I repeat NO COMPARISON in terms of job security and even pay between engineers and doctors. Sure you might say engineers dont have doctorates. So fine compare only the phd. engineers with medical doctors.</p>
<p>Again a reminder sakky, no need to mention anything about fine arts, I do not recommend that to anyone. Art history, film studies in my opinion is more of a hobby than a field of study.</p>
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<p>I definitely DO NOT underestimate the hiring process, I have personally talked with many police officers in San jose. **** check out the Oakland pd, they are always hiring. If a department is short on money, sure it will freeze hiring, but eventually it will open up and come around. Hell work for homeland security, and Im sure I dont need to tell you how much funding those guys get from the Bush administration. Work for the FBI, BATFE, and etc </p>
<p>Also most of my knowledge pertains to California, but the tech industry & engineering in general is the strongest, so if its hard for the people that I know to get a job in engineering, it will most likely be worse for other parts of the country. </p>
<p>Also the places where firefighters get only $17.42 an hour, are probably places with low costs of living. Average cop salary in the bay is about 60K a year, they make about $43 an hour overtime as off duty security. Trust me most firefighter salaries in the bay run about 60K or more. Dont forget overtime again. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.oaklandpolice.com/index.html[/url]”>http://www.oaklandpolice.com/index.html</a></p>
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<p>Dream on, I hope you know that the shortage of nurses is in the 10s of thousands. The nature of the work is soo unbelieveably stressful, that there is a pretty high turnover rate. Conditions are improving as the demand is ever increasing. You think that any of these nurses would work without overtime, especially with the current projected demand. At my junior college, west valley, I noticed a few signs that governor Arnold is spending 90 million to fund more nursing programs to help mitigate the shortage. Nurses also have unions, especially in private hospitals. It is very very very, unlikely that overtime will not be available to nurses or even PAs. youre right about some nurses choose overtime and some do not, however they get to CHOOSE whether or not they work over time not as if its not available. If there is no overtime at one hospital, then go to another one that does have it. </p>
<p>Demand in engineering can never EVER be compared with demand in healthcare. Engineering has major outsourcing problems. Healthcare has major demand due to the baby boomer generation. All in all if you major as a nurse or become a PA, you will find overtime if you want it. </p>
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<p>I made a mistake in assuming that PAs or RNs make more than engineers in the bay area. However median salary for PA is $64,670, electrical engineer (highest paid) is $68,180. that is data for 2002. I suspect that the salaries for engineers has gone down as well as the number of open positions. Definitely the demand between health care and engineering will be moving in opposite directions. The difference in annual salary is not that big less than four thousand. HOWEVER, did you factor in the time for layoffs, and paycuts during your career as an American engineer. My buddys mom works in electronics, very smart woman, took a pay cut from 75K down to 50K last year. Many others who were not as talented got laid off as their positions went to Russian and Indian engineers. (outsourcing is not just to china and India, its also going to eastern European countries as well) Tell me the last time you heard of a nurse being laid off. Watch carefully over the next 20 years and check out the job placement rates and the salaries of nurses and PAs versus engineers. In a short period of time the advantage of a higher starting salary that engineers currently enjoy wont be true anymore. Oh yeah, you forgot to factor in OVERTIME AGAIN for PAs and nurses. Also full time clinical PAs start at $72,457 which is more than engineers make.</p>
<p>Again there is no comparison concerning PAY and DEMAND between healthcare and engineering.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm#earnings[/url]”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm#earnings</a>
<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos031.htm#earnings[/url]”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos031.htm#earnings</a></p>