Chemical Engineer Job Stability and Availibility

sakky · July 27, 2005, 5:10am

So in other words, you are basically retracting your claim that nurses never get laid off. Good. That is precisely my point. ANYBODY can get laid off. You can talk about how it may be more common for some than for others, but you cannot say that a nurse has an absolutely 0% chance of ever getting laid off. Allright then.

And my response to that is, who knows what the economy is going to look like in 10 years? In 10 years, there may be another super-Internet boom on. In 10 years, the health care industry might have been reformed to cause mass unemployment among nurses and doctors. Who knows? Nobody knows for sure. Heck, 10 years ago, the Internet was just a plaything for academics, and certainly the idea that you could actually form a company on the Internet would have been absurd. The last 10 years has seen vast changes. Who’s to say that the next 10 years won’t see equally vast changes?

No, I think what you are really doing is confusing a difference in INDUSTRY vs. a difference in undergrad field. That’s a subtle yet extremely important difference. I certainly agree that certain industries in the US are dying in terms of employment. Like textiles. Like basic consumer goods. Like agriculture. It wasn’t that long ago when a large chunk of American biologists were employed in the agriculture industry - improving crop yields and that sort of thing. I probably would not recommend that you study biology to go down that road.

I can grant you that health care will probably grow faster than many other industries in terms of employment. However, engineers can take advantage of that by choosing health-care oriented industries to work in. And I’m not even talking about engineers changing to become doctors or PA’s. Many if not most chemical engineers that I know who are not academics are in the pharmaceutical and biotech industries. Many ME’s and EE’s have moved to the biomedical device industry. Certainly you must agree that the US health-care industry hires plenty of engineers, and will probably hire plenty more.

You talked about Genentech. Good example because I happen to know quite a few people working there - all of who are engineers of one kind or another. Genentech, like most biotech companies, tends to pay significantly more to its bachelor’s degree engineers than to its bachelor’s degree biologists or chemists. Why is that, if engineers are worthless to them? I’m fairly certain that many of those biologists wouldn’t mind having the job of the engineer. Heck, the Executive head of operations at Genentech is an electrical engineer by training. Why did hire Genentech hire this guy if engineering is worthless to the industry? Are you saying that Genentech should just fire this guy immediately because his background means that he is obviously unable to contribute anything to the company?

The truth is that after you’ve been working for awhile, nobody cares about what degree you have. They only care about your work experience. No biotech company is going to say “Oh, I see that you’ve been working at Genentech for 10 years and have done great work, and you have the exact experience we’re looking for, but I see that your degree is in Mechanical Engineering, and we wanted somebody with a Biology degree, so we’re not going to hire you”. We both know that’s not going to happen . All they’re going to care about is your experience at Genentech.

Hence, as long as all these health-care companies hire engineers, which they do and will, then engineers will be able to set their career paths accordingly. I agree with you that engineers who go take jobs in the textile industry might have problems later, just like biologists who go work in agriculture might have problems later. But I’m talking about people who can actually see industry trends and follow them. Nobody is advocating that you take a degree in anything and go to a dying industry. Obviously you should pay attention to what industries are healthy and work there. It seems to me that the health-care industry will hire plenty of engineers.

I didn’t say that it would happen with 100% certainly. I said that it MIGHT happen - and in particular, you cannot simply assume that the OT will exist in the future. It might. It might not. You must admit it’s possible. You are the one who is making the assumption that it will always exist with 100% certainty. So if you say that it is my opinion that it might not exist, then I would point out that it is also your opinion that it might exist. Neither of us knows for sure what will happen.

And I am asking - what else is so much better to major in? I never said that engineering would guarantee anybody a stable career. I am asking - what bachelor’s degree will? Engineering is not stable, I never said it was. But neither are most of those things you can get your undergrad degree in. Engineering is arguably the best of all available options when you’re talking about undergrad. I think that both you and golubb have concluded that this is not really a topic of serious dispute, because I think we all agree on this basic point.

You’re exaggerating a LOT when you say that manufacturing is gone. You’re the one that talks about the example of Intel - so let’s talk about it. Why does Intel not have a single wafer fab in East Asia? Yes, it has assembly and testing facilities, but no wafer fabs (where the real engineering happens). Why? Intel has only 2 fab locations outside the US - in Ireland and in Israel, both high-cost places for doing business. Why? Not only that, but Intel has no plans to build one in East Asia.

Is Intel investing hundreds of milions into Asia? Sure. But that’s a drop in the bucket in Intel’s capital expenditure budget. This year, it plans to spend SEVERAL BILLION just in expanding the capacity of the wafer fabs in Portland, Oregon and Phoenix, Arizona. In fact, I believe Intel’s plan is to build an entire new fab in Portland, starting this year. Why? Why is Intel massively boosting its manufacturing capacity in the US? Is Intel being dumb?

And even if you believe that Intel is being dumb, it matters not. The bottom line is that there will be plenty of jobs for Intel engineers at Portland and Phoenix. That’s why those 2 locations are hiring like crazy. Keep in mind that wafer fabs cost most than $3 billion each. So when you build one, you want to use it. You can’t just have it sitting around doing nothing. So tell me why is Intel stupidly expanding its American manufacturing capacity? Boy, this must be the most incompetent company ever, right?

Like I said, for many manufacturing operations, notably chips, labor costs are a vanishingly small part of the total cost of operation. Hence, it doesn’t really matter if you can save on labor costs. When you have to pay $3 billion just to build a new fab, who really cares what the operational labor costs are? The same thing is true for plants that adjust to seasonal demand and/or to shorten the supply chain. How are you going to outsource the engineering work in an oil refinery, when the oil refinery sits in the US? Not only that, but refineries will ALWAYS be built close to the demand in order to keep supply-chains short, because you never know if there will be a regional spike in demand for gasoline or heating oil. Tell me how you’re going to outsource that job? The refinery engineer has to work where the refinery is, and if the refinery is in the US, where is that job going to go? The same thing for an Intel chip fab. If the chip engineer has to work in the fab, and the chip fab is in the US, how is that job going to be outsourced?

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sakky · July 27, 2005, 5:11am

You said it yourself - one way to do it is through a job that requires face-to-face contact. Hence, one way you can go is be a sales engineer - you know, the engineer who goes with the salesmen on a call to sell technology products. Salesmen don’t understand the technology, so that’s why they bring the sales engineer with them. That is not an easy job to be outsourced, because it’s basically a sales job.

The other is to enter engineering management, and no, you don’t necessarily need to manage people to enter that field. What you do is you interface with the business guys to find out what they really need from a technology standpoint. You know how business guys are - they don’t really understand the technology. That’s what the engineering manager is there for, to tell them what can and cannot be done from a technological standpoint. The term ‘engineering management’ is a misnomer, because not all of them actually manage people. They should be called ‘engineering consultants’.

It may also involve managing people like you said. See the last paragraph.

The point is that obviously nobody knows what the future is going to hold. However, American engineers have always been able to find a niche before. In particular, I remember when people were whining that Japan and Taiwan were going to take over all of American technology and leave all American technologists penniless. Like you said - Americans found a refuge in R&D. But at that time, nobody knew that was going to happen. Nobody that that was going to be a refuge. People thought they were up a creek without a paddle. It turned out that R&D became the refuge, which nobody could see before. Hence, the point is, since we found a refuge before, why can’t we do it again. Do I know what it’s going to be? Of course not, just like the engineers of 25 years ago didn’t know that R&D was going to be the refuge. The point is that if they found something before, they can probably find something again.

That’s the nature of the industry. 10 years ago, who knew that there were going to be vast industries created on the Internet, in wireless, in digital media, in all of these things that we take for granted. These industries didn’t even exist in the past. If I knew what was going to happen in the future, I wouldn’t be here writing. I’d be a billionaire by investing in the proper stocks. But the point is that something always inevitably comes along.

You know as well as I do that the reason why outsourcing is prevalent in India especially, and China to a lesser extent, is because of growing English skills. So why is it that you will need to speak Hindi or Mandarin? The worldwide language of technology is English. I think we can both agree that any engineer in India will be able to communicate in English.

golubb_u · July 28, 2005, 11:24am

sakky, your entire defense is based on “we’ll find something”…that some refuge will come along to save us. What if it doesn’t?

Also, jobs like “engineering consultants” or “engineering management” are all good temp jobs. They’re in no way a career. Sure, you might get a temp tech job at a company for a couple years (while you’re young), but what about when you get older? When you’re spending more time on the bench than working, the “high” salary is actually a very low salary…and then when you get a job, you have to work 10-11 hours a day to keep it, it’s still just an average salary for stressful burst of 1-2 years before you’re back in the same situation.

epoch_dreams · July 28, 2005, 12:03pm

hey golubb_u,

tell me something. What if you get screwed over by malpractice? What if the death of someone is at your hands and you get sued to the extent of bankruptcy? What if you are banned from practicing medicine again because of your mistakes. I have heard of anesthesiologists who have been blamed for mistakes done by others and people have gotten screwed over pretty bad in medicine. There have been people who have had their medical license taken away! Respected surgeons and doctors have even faced CRIMINAL charges!

Medicine may look great at first but it involves such a tremendous resposibility. You make sound like a ride in the park with little to worry. I have heard of people go through extreme stress and depression in medical school. Some of the smartest students have cracked and broken down to extent of tears. Medicine is not for everyone. It is only for those who are extremely passionate about doing the job.

You can’t just go into medicine for the sake of job “stability” or “money”. I still see you as someone chasing medicine because you think it’ll make you an automatically rich and respected. When will understand that medicine is for those who are passionate about the field irrespective of money and fame?

When you get into medical school, if you don’t study medicine and truly enjoy what your studying - you will regret it so much. I have heard of people regretting their decision to go through medical school when they could just as easily gone to a top graduate school in some other field. People have gone broke due to the debt amassed from medical school. People have dropped out! You make medicine sound like a ride in the park.

You make it sound like it is so easy and that picking a tough undergraduate engineering major is x10 worse than choosing medicine when in reality, you don’t see the dangers on your side. A good medical student can work non-stop for 14 hours. Can you do that? Can you study non-stop for 14 hours? Can you stay awake for 48 hours if you had to? Med. students are also always in competition. In medical school, the most competitive position is dermatology. Do you have any idea how hard it is to make it to the top 10% of your class in medicine?

Your life isn’t “made” if you get into med. school. It has just begun. Even once you get out of medical school, the residency has just begun. Before you know it, your 32 years old before you finally make those big bucks and wondered how all those years just slipped away from you…

I think that if you love helping people and are someone who is very talented at hands on anatomy, medicine is for you. Just take undergraduate anatomy lab on human body. You’ll see how hard it is; especially at Cornell. If you’re at the top of your class in the lab and you excel in everything and in addition to this, you find the class very interesting; by all means, pick medicine.

My friend who will be attending graduate school at Yale for organic chemistry (who is a genius at sciences) struggled with human anatomy lab. It was the hardest class he had ever taken. Indeed, he pulled off an A because he worked so hard but he said that if this was what medical school was like, he would never attend med. school.

aibarr · July 28, 2005, 12:22pm

Golubb. Credentials. C’mon.

golubb_u · July 29, 2005, 1:54am

“When you get into medical school, if you don’t study medicine and truly enjoy what your studying - you will regret it so much.”

…well, what’s new? If you go into engineering and you don’t like it, you can regret it also.

“People have gone broke due to the debt amassed from medical school.”

…untrue. If you get into med school, you’ll definitely pass. Once you pass, you’re set for life…trick is getting into med school.

"Respected surgeons and doctors have even faced CRIMINAL charges! "

…so have engineers. Several of them get sued for incompetence every year.

"Before you know it, your 32 years old before you finally make those big bucks and wondered how all those years just slipped away from you… "

That’s a dumb question…Would you rather be 32 years old and employable till 60, or would you be 32 years old in engineering and worried about a layoff and finding the next job as you get older and older???

“A good medical student can work non-stop for 14 hours. Can you do that?”

Yes. Nurses do it all the time, and there’s billions of them. Many are fat and out of shape too.

karthikkito · July 29, 2005, 2:03am

can we please just call this ■■■■■■■■ and move on?

epoch_dreams · July 29, 2005, 2:21am

You obviously didn’t get my point. If you don’t like medicine once your in medical school, your kind of out of options. Getting through 4 years of engineering is much easier than getting through 4 years of medical school. Furthermore, the debt that you amass when your in medical school is very scary. You make it sound like “passing” med. school is really easy when it’s not.

When your out, your not set for life. You have to get through 4 years of basic internship. At this point, the doctors will treat your first 2 years of interning by making you their ***** and doing pointless jobs. If your surgeon, you have to put with an additional 5-7 years of interning before you become a full surgeon. At any point, if you screw up, your fellow doctors can only do so much to protect you. When malpractice hits you, you can be disbarred or suspended for long periods of time. You can’t compare getting disbarred in the medical field to people getting fired in engineering. An engineer can always go find another job and a doctor can’t. His life is quite literally over when he’s disbarred. It’s the same with a lawyer; once the judge disbarrs him and rids him of his license, he just cannot practice the law. He has to start over.

It’s time you understand the risks of medicine and stop equating medicine to “wealth”, “stability”, “fame”; and try doing it for sake of passion.

As I said earlier, most engineers go far beyond just getting a B.S. in their area. After working for about 5-8 years, most of them go to graduate school and get an advanced business degree thereby moving up the management chain - OR - they persue studies in law, research in the various sciences, and other studies.

aibarr · July 29, 2005, 2:21am

Yeah, even with blatant calls for credentials, golubb’s still not talking, which means he’s got no credentials. All arguments are, therefore, completely without base and the credentials of people who actually are in the field and aren’t pretending to be experts when they should be watching the after-school special, THEY are the ones we should be listening to.

I’m hedging a bet that golubb’s still playing little league baseball.

■■■■■■■■! Move on! Next topic!

epoch_dreams · July 29, 2005, 2:40am

Golubb, have you even graduated high school?

golubb_u · July 29, 2005, 2:41am

"Yeah, even with blatant calls for credentials, golubb’s still not talking, "

well, what do you mean by credentials? You want a letter signed in blood or something?

“After working for about 5-8 years, most of them go to graduate school and get an advanced business degree thereby moving up the management chain - OR - they persue studies in law, research in the various sciences, and other studies.”

…oh I SEEEE…you’re advising to get an engineering degree, work 5-8 years, and when you’re burnt out, switch into an MBA or Law school??? Great plan!!..but I’ll go the medical route. As long as I do a decent job, no comittee/judge can touch my credentials. They can only take my license away if I screw up. That’s the same in every OTHER field also…if you screw up any other job, you ain’t going to be around there either. So that’s a non-issue as far as most doctors I know are concerned.

epoch_dreams · July 29, 2005, 3:34am

Golubb, since you won’t share your credentials and background, I’ll tell everyone a little bit about your background

Golubb, if you despise engineering so much, what the heck were you doing on the thread titled Cornell engineering vs. other schools.

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=27585&page=3&pp=20[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=27585&page=3&pp=20</a>

I think that you all should visit the above hyperlink and see what kind of a massive ■■■■■ Golubb is and how ridiculous his posts are before actually bothering to argue with him. Just take a look at it and you’re in for quite a laugh. People compare U .Michigan Ann Arbor engineering with Cornell engineering and Golubb rants about how no one knows or has ever heard of Michigan before.

I dont even think Golubb has graduated from high school. Heres a site where he talks about his dream schools:

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=7465[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=7465</a>

p.s. - Hey Golubb, It’s interesting how MIT is part of your “dream” school list. Maybe you didn’t know this but MIT is the world’s most prestigious university in engineering and other technical sciences - the very subjects that you constantly criticize and despise.

Hopefully you know this but just in case you don’t, MIT does stand for Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Quentin · July 29, 2005, 4:10am

Now here’s a real question: what if you don’t like blood?

aibarr · July 29, 2005, 7:28am

LOL… Yeah, Quentin. The primary reason why I’m just not interested in medical school is that I’m just not interested in needles. I can stand massive amounts of blood, blood everywhere!, but if you pull out a needle, I’ll either run away screaming or hurl or conk out in a dead faint. Not optimal for a doctor to do.

So instead, I earn my keep by volunteering to hang on swing stages outside skyscrapers and figure out why their facades are falling off! =)

Golubb, when we say credentials, we mean, “What makes you so danged sure that you know what the heck engineering’s all about when you’re throwing around all these wild-assed ideas about what’s what? Can you prove that you’re not a random dude on the street who had a mean ol’ engineer step on his toes once upon a time?” Like, tell us where you got your engineering degree and what firm you work for.

Or, we’d settle for whether you bat left or right when you play teeball, Slugger.

golubb_u · July 29, 2005, 11:57am

"Golubb, when we say credentials, we mean, "What makes you so danged sure that you know what the heck engineering’s all about "

oh, that’s easy. I have tons of family (cousins, aunts, uncles)in both the engineering field as well as medical field. One half of the family (medical) are seen as the “haves”, while the engineering half are seen as the “have nots”. The engineering half have been laid off (several times for some) and are constantly afraid of the next cut, and stressed about not being able to support their families…they’re in a considerably worse situation than the meds, who have all bought 1M dollar homes and whose kids drive BMWs…these people aren’t surgeons, they’re just regular doctors for the most part (IM, pshychiatrist etc.) The engineers are barely eeking out a decent home and average cars.

Also if you don’t believe me, google the following:

lay offs
median salraies
job STABILITY
…etc, etc

“I think that you all should visit the above hyperlink and see what kind of a massive ■■■■■ Golubb is”

(sigh…) there’s no ■■■■■■■■

aibarr · July 29, 2005, 1:09pm

I think that all this proves is that people in your family make better doctors than they do engineers. Yes, those things happen to some engineers, engineers who probably aren’t as skilled as those who would be prowling this forum, but malpractice lawsuits and layoffs and licensure revocation and HMOs also happen to doctors. Maybe not doctors in your family, but they happen to doctors.

My aunt and uncle are successful restauranteurs, but that doesn’t mean I think that all people who start their own bed & breakfast establishments are going to have a busy but successful life. You’re getting a skewed view, and you need to back off and quit imposing the view that you’ve seen onto others.

peck191 · July 29, 2005, 1:39pm

Maybe the engineers in your family aren’t real intelligent, and so they got laid off for not being able to do their jobs?

Just because you know some people that are engineers doesn’t mean you can speak for the whole profession. I know engineers that live very cushy lives, and do not have to worry AT ALL about outsourcing…

golubb_u · July 29, 2005, 5:11pm

“I know engineers that live very cushy lives, and do not have to worry AT ALL about outsourcing…”

pray tell…what kind of engineers are they?

ExRunner · July 30, 2005, 1:08pm

I know engineers with only a B.S. in computer engineering…yeah, the one that you say is so dead because it will be outsourced. They now have more money than 99% of doctors could dream of from their company’s stock options. Google. I’m sure the same goes for yahoo, ebay, etc.

You supply anecdotal evidence, so I can too.

peck191 · July 30, 2005, 11:22pm

“pray tell…what kind of engineers are they?”

about 50/50 electrical and aerospace

Chemical Engineer Job Stability and Availibility

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