Cheny endorses Torture

<p>Curious where those in favor of water boarding and other torture would draw the line.</p>

<p>What if there’s an alleged Columbine-type plot at a school. Waterboard or torture to learn info from a person suspected of being involved?</p>

<p>What if a person allegedly is planning to bomb an unidentified public building with an accomplice, who isn’t known and hasn’t been caught. Torture the person who is caught?</p>

<p>Also, how much do you trust our officials to catch the right people and to determine whether a plot is real or some kind of fantasy?</p>

<p>so you are willing to spare one murderer the pain and suffering he will inflict on a 100 innocent people given the opportunity to not undergo coercive interrogation? Simple yes or no</p>

<p>golani:
there are two issues here. The legality of torture and the morality. Clearly torture is illegal and a war crime both in the U.S. and internationally. Is it moral? Lets not call it ‘coercive interrogation’ It is torture.</p>

<p>It is fallacious to take a worst case scenario and draw a general rule from it. Yes political assaination would have justified against Hitler, but I wouldn’t use that to justify killing Bush. Torture OBL (when Bush brings him back) yes, but not Khaled Masri. I ask you where do you draw the line on treatment of prisoners?</p>

<p>"so you are willing to spare one murderer the pain and suffering he will inflict on a 100 innocent people given the opportunity to not undergo coercive interrogation? Simple yes or no.</p>

<p>I am not willing to go against the U.S. Constitution, so I don’t support torture. Period.</p>

<p>What about you? Are you willing to go against the U.S. Constitution? If so, where would you draw the line? To prevent one murder? To prevent 100? 100,000?</p>

<p>Where in the constitution do you find a ban on torture</p>

<p>Golani and CITATION X, life is not a cartoon. The choices in the real world are never the simplistic “a or b” you want to posit. If you decide that it is OK to engage in torture, you will, with certainty:

  1. End up torturing some completely innocent people who have no ability to help stop anything bad from happening
  2. Obtain some false information which actually hinders efforts to prevent bad things
  3. Morally ruin your torturers.
  4. Destroy any claim to moral superior you have in the world.
  5. Lessen the likelihood that bad people overseas will refrain from torturing our citizens they may capture.</p>

<p>Those things are all guaranteed.</p>

<p>What you absolutely cannot guarantee that you will do is obtain information which will prevent something bad from happening. The real world does not opeate on the lines of an adolescent fantasy, action novel, or comic book. It’s a lot less predictable, and a lot messier. There are no scriptwriters to make sure that the right person is caught and questioned, and that the evil polot is stopped just in time. </p>

<p>The real world is the place where the United States Government was convinced that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.</p>

<p>Poetsheart, I appreciate your thoughtful post (#75), but who are the “those” you are referring to in the following quote?</p>

<p>“I’m always somewhat bemused by those who show a sort of PC tolerance for the brand of religious fanaticism that would result in us all being blown to smithereens via rougue nuclear devices (or devastatinginly peicemeal, via lesser means of mass destruction), at the hands of Islamic terrorists, but wring their hands in anguish, and knash their teeth in panic over a few Fundamentalist Christians interning in Congress. I have to marvel at the cognitive dissonance that allows this type of contradictary thinking.”'</p>

<p>I referred to a sort of amorphose “those” in order to avoid accusing specific persons of “the crime”. :slight_smile: Rather, I was thinking back to some rather heated discussions which have occurred here in the Parents’ Cafe in the past. Some of them concerned Patrick Henry College’s efforts to place some of its students as Congressional Interns, and how it encourages its student in general to involve themselves in the political process. The cyber panic that was raised by the goals of this miniscule Christian College had me scratching my head. The concerned seemed entirely out of proportion to the actual threat. People were figuratively running around, shouting, “The sky is falling! The sky is falling!”. But these same people seem to express little concern for the dangers demonstrated worldwide, time and again by Islamic Extremism.</p>

<p>The 8th Amendment (part of the Bill of Rights):
“Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”</p>

<p>I’m not an attorney, but wouldn’t the Bill of Rights extend only to US citizens? And interrogation is not defined as punishment – the person being interrogated can choose to answer the questions, and any discomfort would end. I’m still uncomfortable with torture, but I don’t view waterboarding as such. I think that there are situations where hard questioning could yield information which would save many innocent lives.</p>

<p>

But the U.S. government does. As do all all signatories to the International Convention on Torture.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>It’s a sad day when believing in the Constitution and in absolute moral values makes one an America hater. The America I love has always had high moral standards and believed in human rights and Constitutional rights. </p>

<p>As for my feelings on those loaded hypothetical scenarios, I will second what kluge posted about the guaranteed results of torture.</p>

<p>The rights in the U.S. Constitution apply to citizens and noncitizens.</p>

<p>NSM, I don’t see how they can apply to noncitizens who are not physically in this country.</p>

<p>The Geneva Convention, which we ratified, however, forbids torture.</p>

<p>"Torture or inhuman treatment of prisoners-of-war (Geneva III, arts. 17 & 87) or protected persons (Geneva IV, art. 32) are grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, and are considered war crimes (Geneva III, art. 130; Geneva IV, art. 147). War crimes create an obligation on any state to prosecute the alleged perpetrators or turn them over to another state for prosecution. This obligation applies regardless of the nationality of the perpetrator, the nationality of the victim or the place where the act of torture or inhuman treatment was committed (Geneva III, art.129; Geneva IV, art. 146). "
<a href=“http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/24/usint8614.htm[/url]”>http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/24/usint8614.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>and from a Sept. Washington Post article:</p>

<p>"Former secretary of state Colin L. Powell said yesterday that he decided to publicly oppose the Bush administration’s proposed rules for the treatment of terrorism suspects in part because the plan would add to growing doubts about whether the United States adheres to its own moral code.</p>

<p>“If you just look at how we are perceived in the world and the kind of criticism we have taken over Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and renditions,” Powell said in an interview, "whether we believe it or not, people are now starting to question whether we’re following our own high standards.</p>

<p>Colin Powell said other nations are questioning whether the United States is following its moral code. …</p>

<p>Powell, elaborating on a position first expressed last week in a letter to Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), also argued that the administration’s plan to “clarify” U.S. obligations under the Geneva Conventions would set a precedent for other nations that would endanger U.S. troops.</p>

<p>"Suppose North Korea or somebody else wants to redefine or ‘clarify’ " Geneva Conventions provisions prohibiting “outrages against personal dignity” and “humiliating and degrading treatment” of prisoners, he said…</p>

<p>But he has reserved his strongest opposition for administration efforts to preserve controversial methods for interrogating terrorism suspects, techniques that others have defined as torture. While it is not clear exactly what techniques the White House wishes to keep, sources have said those previously used include nakedness, prolonged sensory assault and deprivation, the imposition of “stress” positions, and water submersion to the verge of drowning. Bush has said none of those amounts to torture.</p>

<p>Powell strenuously objected to Bush’s February 2002 decision that the United States was not obliged to adhere to Geneva Conventions rules in its treatment of captured al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners. …"
<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/18/AR2006091801414.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/18/AR2006091801414.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The words citizens and “persons” have very distinct meanings under the constitution - and citizens and non-citizens while sometimes having equal rights -can also have varying degrees of rights</p>

<p>As for a non-citizen located outside the United States - they have zero constitutional rights - this is a very basic elementary principal of constitutional law</p>

<p>sorry, unlawful combatants are not deemed “prisoners of war”</p>

<p>Whether non-citizens have constitutional rights or not, they still have rights under international law, and they still have human rights.</p>

<p>Susan, I agree with you – we all have human rights, regardless of nationality, religion, gender or political affiliation. I have trouble, though, when those rights impinge on the most basic right of others – the right to live. </p>

<p>There has to be some kind of hierarchy of rights. I don’t have any problem with people pursuing a faith or political belief that differs from mine. But I do have a problem when such people try to kill others, especially the innocent. We’re not talking about the kind of torture depicted in “Faith of My Fathers,” the story of John’s McCain’s torture under the North Vietnamese. I know that others have said waterboarding is regarded as torture, but I would draw a line between treatment which leaves permanent injury vs. that which forces someone to be uncomfortable for a period of time. </p>

<p>As I’ve said before, hard interrogation techniques are used when someone refuses to answer questions. If someone had captured any of the 9/11 terrorists, I’d gladly approve of waterboarding if that had prevented that attack.</p>

<p>Once it became fully exposed waterboarding would not be of use anyways at this point - because Al Qaeda is now fully informed that this method is just a scare tactic anyways</p>

<p>I think 24 hours a day straight of forcing them to watch taped shows of “Live with Regis and Kelly” might break them</p>