<p>I want to jump in with mafool here and politely ask “clairemarie” to go spew her nonsense elsewhere. We’re adults here trying to have an intelligent conversation. Donna, please try not to let the rare claire-type have any affect on you whatsoever. Many of us appreciate your insights.</p>
<p>Well DonnaL thank you for sharing. This topic is something I truly do not understand but would like to…and with an open, non-judgemental mind.
My daughter has a close friend who is engaged to an " intersexed " person ( never heard that term ) she has concealed the entire relationship to her family who seems unsupportive of her having any type of relationship…I can’t imagine what will happen when they find out, particularly her mother who has forbidden her to date in college.
Also, a friend of mine who is divorced was married to a man who had a sex change after they seperated.<br>
I know many homosexuals of all ages, but this is unchartered territory to me . Thanks for sharing such personal info</p>
<p>Thank you, DonnaL, for sharing your experience here. I admire your courage in becoming who you always were.</p>
<p>" want to jump in with mafool here and politely ask “clairemarie” to go spew her nonsense elsewhere. We’re adults here trying to have an intelligent conversation. Donna, please try not to let the rare claire-type have any affect on you whatsoever. Many of us appreciate your insights."</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>By the way, there was an interesting article in the NYTimes magazine a year or so ago about young transgender college students, particularly in girl’s schools (like Barnard), and the particular difficulties that caused for the administration. The question was whether a student who enrolled as female, but who began transitioning while still at college, would be allowed to stay.</p>
<p>This seems like asking to have one’s cake and eat it too. As sympathetic as I am toward transmen and transwomen, Barnard is a women’s college. If a student decides to become a man, he’s no longer eligible to attend a women’s college.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree, although it seems to be the policy at a number of women’s schools (Smith and Wellesley come to mind) that as long as someone enters as a woman, they’re allowed to graduate no matter how they identify. </p>
<p>Remember, even someone who begins to transition in college is unlikely to complete the transition – medically, surgically, or legally – while they’re still enrolled. The trans-masculine college students I’ve seen don’t much resemble the stereotypical burly, bald transman with a beard and bulging biceps. </p>
<p>In any event, a policy of making people leave would be awfully hard to administer. Where would you draw the line? Identifying as gender-queer or as a “boi,” and using gender-neutral pronouns like zie and hir? Getting a guy’s haircut and binding your breasts and asking people to call you by a male name and use “he”? Changing your name legally? Taking testosterone? Having “top surgery”? What if someone simply says they’ve changed their mind, in order not to get kicked out, and all you’ve done is drive them underground? A college administration isn’t going to start looking in people’s medicine cabinets.</p>
<p>So, I can understand why it’s easier to look the other way. </p>
<p>I do think, though, that it could be argued that if someone really does start identifying as a trans man, and really does seriously pursue transition, allowing him to stay at a women’s college is, in a sense, failing to respect his identity and not taking him seriously. As in, “let’s humor her.”</p>
<p>I’d have a lot of respect for a women’s college that admitted a transitioning trans female student who really does identify as female, even if still legally male. But it hasn’t happened yet, and probably won’t anytime soon.</p>
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<p>I disagree. I think the school should make an exception. The student applied in good faith and was accepted. I think that an institution of higher learning should be sensitive to what is best for someone going through this particularly challenging situation. I think it should be the student’s decision.</p>
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<p>How often does this come up? Pretty rare, I’m guessing. I’d make an exception.</p>
<p>It’s not like these ladies don’t have males in their classes. A lot of the women’s colleges can cross-register with co-ed schools. As for living arrangements, surely something private can be arranged.</p>
<p>I have heard about FTM transsexuals at women’s colleges many times. A lot of women’s colleges tend to have a larger than normal lesbian population, and in many cases (as with Chastity Bono) an FTM transsexual tries to deny their identity but presenting as a lesbian–thus, FTMs end up at women’s colleges. I know another FTM who went to a women’s college, and after transitioning had no problems. He found his peers were very accepting, since it was definitely a liberal-minded school. He was accommodated with a single room with a private bathroom, but transsexuals are often accommodated in this manner at coed universities, too.</p>
<p>Chaz Bono will probably be more successful as a man than as a woman. If Chaz has the courage to change genders, having grown up in the public eye, then he most likely has extreme confidence that it is the right thing for him, and will go confidently into the future.</p>
<p>I have known two people who went from man to woman at companies where I’ve worked. At one company the person was a maintenance worker. Once he/she started cross dressing, “she” was not given any respect at all by the other workers, and became the object of ridicule as she teetered around in high heels and mini skirts while still working in maintenance. Not even a real female would have been able to pull that one off. “She” was forced to walk way across the plant to a seldom used “gender neutral” restroom. Contrast that with a vice-president of engineering who was confident enough as a female that once he/she started cross dressing, “she” started up a Women’s Engineering Club and helped to mentor the younger women. In fact, it was kind of neat for the women to run into her in the ladies’ room, because she always had a friendly comment and asked them about their engineering projects and if management could help with anything. She was very respected by all in the company. </p>
<p>To me, the moral of the story is that when people deserve respect, they get it, and I think that Chaz will no doubt get a lot of it in the future.</p>
<p>This discussion seems to raise the question of “Are there only two genders?” </p>
<p>Let’s assume a person goes through a series of steps over time. </p>
<p>Step One: Born with the feeling I am female but I have male genitals. Others look at me as a male.
Step Two: Decide to live my life as a female even though I have male genitals. Others begin looking at me as a female.
Step Three: I decided to have surgery to remove male genitals and create female genitals. Others look at me as female.</p>
<p>Is this person always female because the mind says the person is female?
Is this person always male because the person is born with male genitals?
Is this person a male who becomes female because of a change in genitals?<br>
Is this person a third gender and, if so, does that gender change over time?</p>
<p>The interesting thing is that many transexuals then live as “homosexuals”. I have seen this usually in males who become women. You would expect the new “woman” would be happy by having a relationship with a man and trying to live a normal live. Instead, many then become “lesbians”.</p>
<p>This shows how sexuality has nothing to do with gender. You are a man, being sexually attracted to women yet, you want to be a woman yourself.</p>
<p>My grandmother would have a fit if she was living our times.</p>
<p>A general note: when describing trans people, it’s respectful to use the pronouns that correspond with their gender identity (unless they’ve specifically requested otherwise). That means Chaz is he, and a trans woman is she, not he/she or “she” in scare quotes. This applies regardless of the decisions they’ve made about transitioning, what physical changes they’ve undergone, or how well they pass / are passed.</p>
<p>It might be helpful for some folks to read [url=<a href=“http://ftmichael.transboys.info/trans101.html]this[/url”>http://ftmichael.transboys.info/trans101.html]this[/url</a>]. In particular, the section titled “Gender identity, sex, sexual orientation … I really don’t get the difference here” is pretty awesome. The idea is that the gender one identifies as, the sex that they are physically, and their sexual orientation are three totally separate variables, and you can’t necessarily judge someone’s gender by their outward appearance. For example, someone can be a woman and a lesbian even if she has male genitalia. “Woman” and “lesbian” (or “man”, “gay”, “bi”, “straight”, etc.) refer to someone’s identity and aren’t necessarily related to the state of their body.</p>
<p>Part of what many straight, cisgender (= not trans) people find complicated is separating these identities that they perceive to be the same thing, because for them, these identities are aligned.</p>
<p>So yes, MyOpinion, trans people can be gay, bisexual, or queer, just like cisgender people. The decision to transition is related to our own feelings about our bodies and our gender identities, not the desire to fit in with a heterosexual norm.</p>
<p>razorsharp, you bring up two interesting questions.</p>
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<p>If this person has always felt that she’s a woman, then her gender has always been as a woman, even if at times her physical sex didn’t “match”. No question.</p>
<p>Determining when someone’s sex changes is more complicated, because there are so many different biological markers that we use to indicate sex: hormonal, chromosomal, secondary and primary sex characteristics… If a trans man has been on hormones for years and has a deep voice, a beard, and is always read as male, has his sex changed? Does his sex change when he has top surgery (a mastectomy), or when he has a hysterectomy, or a phalloplasty? (Keep in mind that many trans men don’t go through all of these treatments, for financial, medical, or personal reasons.) It’s a question that many legal jurisdictions have struggled with and dealt with differently. In some areas, a letter from a therapist attesting that one is trans is enough to change legal documentation of one’s sex; in others, one has to provide evidence of completing every available surgery.</p>
<p>As for the question, “Are there only two genders?”: Not all trans people identify as male or female. Some people are genderqueer, androgynous, two-spirit, or have other identities outside the male-female binary. There have been cultures throughout time and throughout the world that formally recognized a range of genders that went beyond male and female. One way to think about it is that gender is a spectrum ranging from male to female, with a huge variety of identities in between … though that model has its own problems, but it comes closer to representing the diversity of human identities. People who are genderqueer may or may not choose to change their names, use different pronouns (including gender-neutral pronouns like ze, hir, and hirs), or change their bodies or their gender expressions to better reflect who they are.</p>
<p>Sorry to double-post, but this started to get long :)</p>
<p>Shame on you, Claremarie.</p>
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<p>My 90 yo grandmother couldn’t care less, and says “good for Chaz.”</p>
<p>My mother is 87 years old. 35 years ago, my teenage sister brought home a male friend who, it soon became clear, was transitioning to female. My mother—a devout Catholic and rigid follower of the rules—never blinked an eye. She set another place at the table night after night, welcomed my sister’s friend warmly, and when the time was right, effortlessly switched pronouns. For all claremarie’s impressive knowledge of Church teaching, she lacks what my mom saw as the basic tenet of Catholicism: understanding and compassion. He alone loves the Creator who manifests a pure love for his neighbor – St. Bede.</p>
<p>Thank you for your posts, DonnaL. I have learned a great deal.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great post quaere - lots of good information. What a task, though, for the whole population of people in general to get up to speed on all (or even most) of it. It’s somewhat complicated.</p>
<p>Mary13
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<p>That is because she actually took Jesus Christ seriously.</p>