<p>“You make your bed; you sleep in it.”
And the kids who lie? (on something that can’t be checked). What bed do they sleep in?</p>
<p>The first report, based on a 2006 Study by the Seattle-based Social Development Research Group, indicates a strong relationship between peer substance abuse and school perfomance. As the prevalence of past-30 day alcohol use within a school population rises, the percentage of those who pass the 10th-grade Washington Assessment of Studnet Learning in math, reading, and writing declines. (Controls are in place for income, etc., and other extraneous factors).</p>
<p>The second one, based on the Washington State Healthy Use Survey, cross-tabulating substance abuse with other behaviors found that alcohol use in the past 30 days is associated with self-reported poor grades (grades last year mostly Ds and Fs) In 2004, 35.4% of 8th graders, 48.5% of 10th grders, and 62.2% of 12th graders who report poor grades also report recent alcohol use (much, much higher - about double - than the higher-grade peers.) In 2004, of 10th graders reporting poor grades, 15.1% used alcohol ten or more times in the past 30 days. This association begins early, with 7.3% of 6th graders reporting poor grades having used alcohol in the past 30 days.</p>
<p>As noted, it is not known which is chicken and which egg. (I also have data on the impact of youth treatment and its relationship with grades.)</p>
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<p>Here’s a nice simple link:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/cont_problem/rpt2000.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/cont_problem/rpt2000.pdf</a></p>
<p>On page 9:</p>
<p>The percentage of drinkers (students who have consumed alcohol in the prior 12 months) who have “fallen behind in schoolwork” due to their own drinking:</p>
<p>Non-binge drinkers: 9.8%
Occasional binge drinkers: 26.0%
Frequent binge drinkers: 46.3%</p>
<p>Miss a class?</p>
<p>Non-binge drinkers: 8.8%
Occasional binge drinkers: 30.9%
Frequent binge drinkers: 62.5%</p>
<p>Forget where you were or what you did (i.e. blackout):</p>
<p>Non-binge drinkers: 10.0%
Occasional binge drinkers: 27.2%
Frequent binge drinkers: 54.0%</p>
<hr>
<p>Or, on page 10, the second-hand effect of binge drinking on non-drinkers and non-binge drinkers at three types of school. </p>
<p>Percentage who report having their sleep and/or studying interrupted:</p>
<p>Low binge drinking school: 43.2 %
Medium binge drinking school: 60.5%
High binge drinking school: 70.5%</p>
<p>Had to take care of a drunken student:</p>
<p>Low binge drinking school: 37.3 %
Medium binge drinking school: 53.6%
High binge drinking school: 57.2%</p>
<p>Been insulted or humiliated:</p>
<p>Low binge drinking school: 20.5 %
Medium binge drinking school: 29.3%
High binge drinking school: 35.8%</p>
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<p>Put yourself in the place of a high school student who knows that this question will be asked on all of your college apps and that high school drinking could impact your admissions chances.</p>
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<p>Does the current profiling, especially profiling in favor of selected high schools, upset your stomach?</p>
<p>What’s the difference?</p>
<p>mini - any data on the impact of drinking for college age students? I don’t know…it seems to me that there are many smart high school and college kids who drink heavily (“book” smart that is). They may not have been drinking at 6th grade or 10th grade but once college hits, the peer pressure seems huge. How about all those drinkers at schools like Williiams and Dartmouth? - these are excellent schools that are really hard to get into. I’ve also seen data at some schools that indicate that frat and non-frat GPAs are essentially equivalent - yet we know that frat members are typically drinking more.
I’m not saying this to support drinking - I think drinking is totally out of control on college campuses. I just don’t think we can present a case to students that it has a bad impact on grades.<br>
I must say that the solutions that have been used to combat the problem are well intentioned, and in some cases, may seem to work. But I wonder if these solutions are just causing new problems. OK, so we ban alcohol and kick them off campus - doesn’t that just push the problem into the larger community? Perhaps the stats at the school get better - but are we really measuring the impact? Do we check to see if DWIs in the region are up for example?</p>
<p>interesteddad -
since you asked - yes, profiling in general makes me ill.
Why should I have more chance to be accepted at a top school just because I attend a “feeder” school?<br>
Yes, this falls under “Life is Unfair” - but I fail to see how it makes sense to add even more profiling categories. Each individual should be given a chance to shine (or not shine) on their own merits.</p>
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<p>The colleges participate in cooking the books on that one. If your GPA falls below a given level, your name is officially removed from the frat membership rolls, even though you still may be paying dues and participating in all frat events. But, your low GPA is not counted.</p>
<p>Also, correct for socio-economic factors. Statistically speaking, the wealthiest percentage of the student body (i.e. those who can afford fraternity dues) should have higher GPAs.</p>
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<p>Beats me. Especially when the colleges are quite probably profiling for higher binge drinking rates by concentrating their admissions on selected feeder schools.</p>
<p>I figure that, if you are going to profile based on high school, might as well profile for lower binge drinking rather than higher binge drinking. But, I’m a real simple kind of guy and college admissions is pretty complex.</p>
<p>“mini - any data on the impact of drinking for college age students? I don’t know…it seems to me that there are many smart high school and college kids who drink heavily (“book” smart that is). They may not have been drinking at 6th grade or 10th grade but once college hits, the peer pressure seems huge.”</p>
<p>I think Interesteddad has answered that question - Williams, Dartmouth, and Middlebar are all in the “frequent” binge category. I would find it very, very difficult to believe that those who experienced “blackouts” (almost 10% in the previous month in the Duke Medical School study) don’t experience more academic difficulties relative to their non-bingeing peers. So, yes, push come to shove, I’d tell you point-blank that these schools are just not as good academically as their selectivity would lead you to believe, but that’s another issue. If students are more likely to miss a class because of their drinking, more likely to have their studies disrupted or fall behind because of their drinking, and more likely to forget where they are because of their drinking, then the academic quality of the school has, in fact, declined, whether it is reflected in grades or not. (Don’t expect this to show up in USNWR’s peer assessment scores.)</p>
<p>“OK, so we ban alcohol and kick them off campus - doesn’t that just push the problem into the larger community? Perhaps the stats at the school get better - but are we really measuring the impact?”</p>
<p>As noted, enforced banning is NOT my preferred approach. But we are now beginning to see data from Oklahoma, and from elsewhere. Yes, there is more off-campus drinking. No, even off-campus, not nearly as much as there was previously on and off campus combined. Yes, the larger community has to deal with it (as well as realizing more tax revenue). And the on-campus impacts are, frankly, stunning. (DWIs, unfortunately, are a measure of enforcement, not of alcohol prevalence - there are communities that pay for the new town hall that way.)</p>
<p>“I think drinking is totally out of control on college campuses.”</p>
<p>It is NOT totally out of control on most campuses.</p>
<p>Wechsler notes that the impacts are not only academic.</p>
<p>For example, during the previous year, 7.8% of non-bingers, 22.3% of occasional bingers, and 41.5% of frequent bingers engaged in unplanned sexual activities.</p>
<p>3.7% of non-bingers, 9.8% of occasional bingers, and 20.4% of frequent bingers did not use protection when having sex.</p>
<p>3.9% of non-bingers, 10.9% of occasional bingers, and 26.6% of frequent bingers were hurt or injured.</p>
<p>To the extent that a school has a higher number of frequent bingers (i.e., and etc.), to that extent the students are more likely to have unplanned sex, have sex without protection, and are more likely to be hurt or injured.</p>
<p>(This also does not go into the USNWR peer assessment score.)</p>
<p>“It is NOT totally out of control on most campuses.”
So it’s only a select few that have drinking issues? Based on the stats you collect? Yeah - Williams, Duke, Dartmouth, large state schools like Wis, UT and PSU all have issues. I went to a NY state school many years ago and things were out of control there. My brother went to an Ivy ( I visited and it was out of control IMO). So, perhaps it’s just my definition (lots of drunk kids wandering around and throwing up). In any case, I’ve been to a number of campuses and at least it SEEMS like an epidemic. I DO know that if you want to find alcohol, you can do so on almost any campus. Drugs too. So I don’t buy into the idea that sending my kid to BYU will keep them away from these things (we just had a situation in our town that involved BYU grads caught with serious drugs).
OK, I’ll stop rambling. This is a really tough issue…</p>
<p>“DO know that if you want to find alcohol, you can do so on almost any campus. Drugs too.”</p>
<p>Absolutely true. But the variations are in fact very, very wide, school to school, even sometimes among schools that would on the surface seem somewhat similar, or have similar student bodies. History, tradition, administration involvement, actual enforcement policies, all play a role. </p>
<p>Both alcohol and drug use on campuses generally are slightly down from 5-6 years ago, though on certain campuses they remain very high.</p>
<p>I don’t collect the stats on any school, but due to my professional employment, I am privy to many of them. And some of them are very public. I do not provide information on any school where the data has not been made public by the school itself. </p>
<p>This entire forum is built upon individuals finding differences, sometimes very small ones, among schools in academics, departments, faculty, class sizes, endowments, spending per student, how good-looking the students are, etc., etc. And yet, when it comes to alcohol and drug use, so many folks immediately jump to the conclusion (erroneous) that all schools are the same, and/or there is nothing that can be done about it. They’d never say the same about the English Department, or the performance of the football team, would they? I think it is because folks simply don’t want to know. (USNWR either.)</p>
<p>Well, all schools have faculty and students. So?</p>
<p>I was in college when the legal drinking age was 18. We had a bar on campus. I really don’t remember the binge drinking that goes on today.</p>
<p>I understand that there are variances. I think most parents do. What I’m not sure I understand is the impact this will have on a particular student - especially a student who is inclined to drink in any case. If I go to Yale, and I want to drink, I join a frat and I’m fine. Our pres certainly found his niche there.
So I guess it all boils down to the old argument - is it the student or the school? If I send my brainy kid to a school where there only a few brainy kids, will he be dragged down by the masses or shine and do just fine? If I send my non-drinker to a high binge drinking school, we he fall right in and become a party animal or make his own way?<br>
I agree that drinking rates should be considered.A nd there should be better reporting on this factor. But I can’t see myself limiting my children by telling them they can only apply to schools with low binge drinking rates. Talk to them about it…sure. but tell them we won’t pay for the school because of this one factor? Plenty of parents and kids would then be forced to avoid their state flagship schools - many of which are very good schools at affordable prices. At ANY school, should parents prohibit their children from joining greek organizations due to the high correlation with drinking? I can see not paying for it - but saying no?
Selecting a school, joining a frat/sorority. Are these MY choices?</p>
<p>I let my kid apply to any school she wanted to, and would have let her go to any of the schools to which she applied, high binge or low - as it turns out, both were on the list. To the degree possible, I tried to arrange for her to do Thursday overnights.</p>
<p>As a result of the overnights, the top school on the list fell to the bottom, and one closer to the bottom rose to the top. Could she have managed at the school with high drinking rates? I presume so - all of the students there seem to manage. But why she should she have to settle for “managing”?</p>
<p>Impact on individual students? Well, put it this way (I speak about my alma mater not because it is unique, but only not to offend folks at other schools): 50% of the students (and closer to 60% of the males, and even higher for white males) binged in the past two weeks, and 3 out of 10 did so three or four times in the past two weeks. 20% of the campus abstains totally (a higher percentage than that among minorities.) So if you wanted to be a moderate drinker, and avoid the drunken parties, and not be a teetotaller, where would you go? I’m sure you could carve out a space, and some do, and defend it…but why should you have to? Why should moderate drinking be a “minority culture” (especially since it is the majority culture in most of America), especially when there are so many wonderful schools, equally fine, where you wouldn’t have to? I don’t think it is a problem if folks want to make that choice - provided they know what they are getting into. (I get too many pm’s from parents on this list whose kids attend, with whom I commiserate, telling me that they just didn’t know.)</p>
<p>Impact on the drinkers? Actually, unknown. We will never know if they would have behaved similarly on another campus. But we do know (with some measure of statistical reliability) how many of them will become alcoholics in the next 20 years, if they aren’t so already. (My roommate was one). I would like to believe that it doesn’t have to be that way.</p>
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<p>Thank you. In all the threads about college drinking, that is the most succinctly on point statement of the issue I’ve seen. In my book, it’s never been about prohibition. It’s about schools offer an environment supportive of moderation.</p>
<p>“I don’t think it is a problem if folks want to make that choice - provided they know what they are getting into.”
Agree with this. In our case, we were well aware of the schools on our list that had drinking reputations. The “top party” schools listed in PR are just one indication. But I do agree that a Thur Night visit is the best way to assess.
In our case, we would have preferred a less alcohol infused school for our son. But he balanced all the factors - strength in major, money, big vs small, honors programs with perks - and HE made the choice. I know he drinks - don’t know how much (didn’t do much in high school). But he has done very well academically, participates in lots of great activities and has chosen a non-drinker for a roommate next year (a good sign). And he likes his school. So I think he’s OK.
Perhaps I’m being a bit over sensitive but I find Interesteddad’s posts to be much too black and white on this issue - and in some cases, offensive. I agree that schools should do more to support a culture of moderation. But what I hear coming through is Binge Drinking Schools = Bad Environment = Bad Kids. Bad parents too, while we’re at it. Avoid them at all costs. It’s a MUCH more complex than that.</p>
<p>“Regular drinkers make 10% to 14% more money than those who do not drink, according to a study conducted by the Journal of Labor Research, published quarterly by the Department of Economics at George Mason University, and the Reason Foundation, a Los Angeles-based think tank.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.inc.com/criticalnews/articles/200609/alcohol.html[/url]”>http://www.inc.com/criticalnews/articles/200609/alcohol.html</a></p>
<p>It appears as though the preponderance of drunks at these top schools may partly account for the success of their graduates, and may lead to greater financial contributions from alumni. I always wondered why Williams’ alumni giving rate was so high. I guess it’s because of all those drunks who go there.</p>