<p>the val/sal scholarship thing is the biggest problem. A GC letter would solve all but that.</p>
<p>Whenever I see threads like this, I thank our school for having the wisdom to rank only by decile. It eliminates so many bad feelings and silly feuds, and makes the top-ranked kids friends instead of enemies. There is the “really really super smart” group and that is it! They still compare grades and scores, but it never causes great hard feelings because there is no “final consequence” or anything. I did notice that some of the math teachers rank the students within their particular sections, but it doesn’t go farther than causing some rivalry within that particular class.</p>
<p>FWIW, the students that S was talking about this with earlier today are LDS kids…and they think it is unfair too! Even though it works to their advantage. I don’t think S thinks they are jerks or wants to be “better than them” or anything like that.</p>
<p>You know, it seems to be a church state issue if a public school is “rewarding’” kids of one religion over those of another or none.</p>
<p>no?</p>
<p>Maybe the system you get on PM will be workable…</p>
<p>A lot of schools have problems with GPA and rank. My son took 2 college classes that were not offered at his HS: Physics and Linear Algebra. He got A’s in them but his HS transcript just says college math-credit and college science -credit. He got a B in Honors Humanities which really hurt his GPA and rank without 2 extra A’s to offset it.</p>
<p>I would expect even the Mormon parents to be upset about this. This is really just an injustice, they are doing your son a great disservice. I would even suggest that the school favors one religion over another (I’m assuming this school is a private school) but nothing can really be done about that.</p>
<p>This is a small potatoes worry. Taking tougher classes, if they are really tough, is more decisive than a few smidgens of class rank obtained by taking a lighter schedule. The really striking example in my town is the kids who take the college-courses-for-high-school-credit Post-Secondary Enrollment Options (PSEO) program here. They have much lower GPAs, on average, than many high school students, but they have already taken genuine college courses, so they fare very well indeed when applying to the most selective universities for freshman admission.</p>
<p>Hmm - I used to not like the way our District does class rank & gpa as we are the only district in the area that does it our way, but I’m beginning to see some advantages and some fairness. All high school courses carry rank points (reg - 7 pts, PreAP - 8 pts & AP - 9pts). Rank is determined by the grade earned times the allotted rank pts for each course. GPA is totally separate from rank pts. Final class rank is determined by the 21 classes with the highest rank pts. It allows kids to take a more rigorouse course load & not be penalized gpa wise. It also levels the playing field somewhat - kids who want to take full, rigorouse course loads are not penalized, nor are the kids who take a lighter load their senior year given any sort of advantage when it comes to rank. GPA does come into play for things like graduating with honors, high honors, highest honors so that all kids get some recognition for their high grades - no matter what courses they take. Something for everyone!</p>
<p>At my S’s Jesuit school, the valedictorian is NOT the student with the highest GPA. The faculty votes for valedictorian as the one student who best represents the school. Of course GPA is part of the equation, but so are ECs. Last year the valedictorian was a Mormon! He had straight 5s on his many AP tests, so no academic slouch, but I’m not sure how he best represented the senior class, because the school is 85% Catholic. So there are some very subjective discussions going on. I kinda like the idea.
BTW, the val went to BYU.</p>
<p>The poster who said there are lots of stories like this are right. Here’s two:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Last year my S’s val was a student who took all academic classes (as opposed to honors or gifted or AP). Didn’t even go to college. That’s what happens when schools don’t weight. (APs are weighted, but not the others.) Her speech at graduation was “telling.” And the cheers that the co-saluts got was more so.</p></li>
<li><p>My DH was edged out of #1 because he took orchestra, and the other guy took study hall – similar situation to OPs. Frustrating for him at the time, but has had no bearing on anything since.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>On the bright side, I think many colleges and such are aware of these things among certain high schools, so it doesn’t matter as much. I got the impression with my sons’ applications that “top ten percent” was important, but more than that didn’t get much notice. One S was 4th (of 750) and one was 21st, and both were treated well.</p>
<p>Yes, this GPA stuff seems to teach lessons about the unfairness of life country wide. At my Ds school, weighted grades were only added after ninth grade. Of course, her only B is one semester of math in ninth grade. As a result, the kids who have only one B after ninth grade have higher averages because their B is weighted and hers was not.
Another student is retaking a class that was a gifted class in 9th class in which she made a C (my D worked her tail off for a then unweighted A) and they are letting her substitute the now weighted honors grade for the original C! Go figure.
I can only hope that you are right about colleges being savvy to these issues.</p>
<p>Discussions about GPA calculations in schools that rank always remind me of Buddy Hackett’s line in “It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World,” when the about-to-become criminals can’t determine how to divvy up the loot they haven’t found yet: “We figured it, and we figured it, but no matter how we figured it - somebody didn’t like the way we figured it!” (A lot funnier when Buddy Hackett says it, btw.)</p>
<p>It would seem that there is no fair way. I like our school’s method: no weighted grades, no rank, GPA figured to the thousandths of a decimal point, kid with the highest GPA is announced 3 weeks before graduation as the de facto val (called the Senior Scholar around here). It’s essentially out of each kid’s control, since taking extra classes, community college classes, getting out of gym, etc. confer no advantage in the outcome. Cuts down on the agonizing!</p>
<p>
My local school system does the thing … and it certainly has the pros you state which I like a lot. But it also comes with a con for the students with the highest grades … for the most selective schools there is a huge difference between being in the top 10% and being in the top 1%-2% … this is certainly not a show stopper but certainly diminishes one of the “selling points” of the highest GPA kids.</p>
<p>The GPA a high school assigns only has a bearing in high school (seems kind of obvious, I guess) - colleges will recalculate GPA for their purposes because they throw out the weights used by various high schools and only count academic classes. I think it does matter when a student is applying to highly selective schools. There’s a book by Hernandez that says there is a formula used by ivy league schools, and the no. l spot confers a huge advantage. It seems to me that because the advantage at your school is enjoyed only by people of one religion that the school has no ground to stand on. I wouldn’t want to be the one making the case, though. You could find yourself explaining all this to Larry King or the like. It kind of seems like its too late for you to make any change that would affect your s., but it is a legitimate issue to raise for kids in the future at your school. It stinks when byzantine rules/regulations seem to come down unfairly.</p>
<p>D was ranked number one in her class semester after semester for the first three years of high school. But in spite of maintaining straight A grades she was eventually overtaken by the #2 kid based on another of this sort of GPA technicality. D was heavily into band, and band was not an honors course. So the #2 kid could take one more honors class with its higher grade weight each semester than she could. I suppose she could have given up band and taken another honors course to defend her number one ranking, but she loved band and is a talented musician. That would have been placing her class rank above her education. </p>
<p>Eventually D settled the question once and for all by getting a B, which removed all chance of being val (she did hang on to sal, however). But in the end it didn’t really matter that much. She still got into great schools. And I think her devotion to her music ECs meant more on her app than being ranked number 1 would have.</p>
<p>So to the OP’s point, I think asking the GC to put in an explanation in with the transcript is a good idea. I would be hesitant to file a lawsuit or alert the news media. I don’t the the general public has much sympathy for either party in a validictorian squabble. And you may end up with more publicity than you wanted. Does the name Blair Hornstine ring a bell?</p>
<p>Luckily (LOL) in our school we didn’t have enough honors/AP classes available to take nothing but them. So Band/orchestra kids were not at a disadvantage; everyone had to take something that wasn’t weighted. Most of the top ten, including the val, btw, were involved in music.</p>
<p>Well, S is VERY shy so I know he would not go for media attention :eek: (I don’t think I’d want that either) and doesn’t want to be perceived as a whiner–obviously his mother is not so worried about herself ;)</p>
<p>Hopefully, as some have mentioned, the admissions people at the colleges he’s interested in will be wise to this stuff and being in the top 1% will be good enough. I think if it were a matter of previously being ranked #3 and now he found out he’s #7, it wouldn’t be quite as big of a thing. Still irritating and “not fair”, but I don’t think it would bother him quite as much.
I guess his heavy involvement in a sport helps too.</p>
<p>Sometimes pepole respond: get over it, it’s no big deal, in ten years who’ll know? living well is the best revenge, etc. Part of me agrees with that, but for now I am leaving it off to one side. Class rank IS an academic honor an I don’t think people are wrong for expecting it to be done fairly. ** In addition, rank counts a lot in some states for getting into state schools; and a number of scholarships depend on rank, with some just for valedictorians etc. Also, since USNWR lists the percent of freshmen who were in the top 10% of their class (or top 25% for lower tier schools), schools are looking more closely at rank. **. So no one should flame anyone posting about rank.</p>
<p>GOOD POINTS ABOUT OUR SCHOOL: [ul]
[li]Only the 5 academic areas are counted, so students can take all the electives they want, which usually don’t have an AP attached, and it will not pull down the rank.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]AP and Honors are each weighted, so people who took General (non-honors) classes don’t beat out the kid with all APs.[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>BAD POINTS: [ul]
[<em>] Rank is figured to the thousandth of a point, which is ludicrous for two reasons: first, ask your kids about “significant figures:” statistically, the extra digits are completely meaningless. The number has to be written out ONLY to the correct nuber of “sig figs.” Second - grading is way too subjective to be carried out that far! Even in math classes, one teacher might take off a half point for (for example) not using significant figures, or forgetting an absolute value sign, while another might mark the whole problem wrong. Not to mention English classes!
[</em>] There has been some problem about college courses: my oldest child took an Ivy science class that was NOT counted, while some courses at a local 4th tier regional college that the school has a “deal” with ARE counted and weighted.
[/ul]</p>
<p>My sister’s school has even more problems. They claimed they did not count 9th grade AT ALL so there would be a level playing field. HOWEVER, as it turns out, their computer DOES count certain ninth grade courses - any course the school computer lists as a TENTH grade course! So it has been counting Ancient History, but not African History (both are one semester courses, but Ancient is considered tenth gade); Bio but not Earth Science (neither has a prereq, but Earth Science is a 9th grade course); French II (which can be takn since French I is given in the middle school) but not Latin I (there is no Latin in middle chool, etc.)</p>
<p>What this means is that a few parents in the know have been able to - well, not exactly game the system, but act on inside information, making their kids continue French II even if they wanted Latin, take Ancient History in 9th grade,etc. etc. etc.</p>
<p>As for the OP - sorry if I offend anyone, but this is clearly unfair and sounds like a Church-State thing (wow, anyone ever study church-state relations in Utah and Idaho? I have read extensively on Utah - what a freaking nightmare. And to think that in the 19th century various “Nativist” parties were scared to death of Catholics! I have seen ANYTHING like what has gone on in Utah; I have NEVER heard of anything so blatantly unfair!In fact, a Mormon girl in my son’s class wrote her entire senior Government project on this issue - she was strongly against the church and state being in bedwith each other like that).</p>
<p>Anyone, OP, I would calmly and quietly point out this discrepancy. It is wrong.</p>
<p>First, congratulations on your S’s fine record and accomplishments. As a parent who takes great pride in my children’s achievements I can understand that on a personal level it irritates (and hurts) you and definitely seems to favor the LDS students. There are numerous similar stories about students losing VAL or SAL to students taking lighter or less stenuous course loads at schools that don’t weight for Honors, AP etc. It happened to Eamom many years ago.</p>
<p>I agree with nedad that you should quietly approach the admisitration with your case but at the same time, be prepared to accept that nothing may be done about it. At least you will have aired your opinion and advocated on behalf of your son as any parent should in a situation as one-sided and unfair as this one appears to be. </p>
<p>Nothing can take away your S’s achievements and, to be honest, being VAL /SAL vs being 4 or 5 is not going to make any difference in admissions if everything else is right with the application. Remember, they also turn down many hundreds of VALS and 1600s in the process.</p>
<p>Once he is in college NO ONE is ever going to ask or talk about his class rank, GPA or SAT scores from high school. Celebrate his success, be proud of his achievements and don’t dwell on something that will have little or no meaning in a few short years. Grad and professional schools as well as employers won’t care (or for that matter know) if he was first or fifty-first in high school.</p>
<p>There is definitely a problem with systems that penalize students who take classes in the fine arts. We have a district that does this. Subsequently kids who take unweighted classes in fine arts are at a disadvantage in class ranking. I know kids who have dropped out of the music program to overcome this mathematical disadvantage. Also, I know many excellent students who took music and were ranked in the top 1%, but never the val or sal… NEVER! I think it gives the message that academic intelligence is all that matters and that musical or artistic intelligence is unimportant. And it is certainly a shame if colleges perpetuate this attitude.</p>