Thank you QuantMech and ucbalumnus - your input helps me to see a different perspective, and I can now see some reasoning behind the practice of giving very difficult tests, especially in a large lower-division class.
I especially appreciate QuantMech’s guaranteed grading scale. That alone would eliminate my biggest gripe with this system. It would set a level of student-vs-subject-matter rather than just head-to-head competition between students for a set number of passing grades. It would also foster more interaction and cooperative learning. My experience with grading curves in my era was that the curve never HURT the student. That has not been the case in our recent experience.
The upper division EE courses usually only start with 40-ish students, and finish with 25-ish. Out of those, DS’s estimate is that maybe 5 get non-passing grades (Ds are not passing). So while perhaps 80%of those that stick with it do indeed pass, only about 1/2 of those who began the class actually successfully complete it. One professor last semester started the course by announcing that half of the class had already attempted his class once before,and the other half he would likely see again next semester. (and yes, unfortunately, my son will indeed be seeing him next semester after dropping the class early).
My kid got a 50% on a test last semester, but with a note from the prof saying it was a really hard test and that she had done well. I think that was his idea of being encouraging… not sure it worked, as she did not sound encouraged. I do think that women generally have a harder time than men powering through these experiences and keeping their self confidence intact (not an issue for many of the male students no matter what happens ). I believe this is one reason for the gender gap in the hard STEM subjects. Women are more easily discouraged by these grades, and just assume these majors are not for them. It happened to me 30 years ago, and I think it is still happening.
I too remember something like this happening way back in the day. I took a physics course, and thought I was doing ok. There were multiple levels of physics at my university. A lot of the students from the higher course then dropped down to my course, and my grade plummeted. Apparently I did not have the self-esteem to handle this, because I then abandoned physics (and science) for 15 years. I do think women tend not to handle this as well @intparent
This is also probably overstating it a bit. You can have class avgs in the 40s where there are still a handful of students who score quite high. My kids have been in classes with class avgs that low but at least 1-2 students have made high As. (That happened back when my dh was in college for chemE. Most students would have 30s-60s and then there was that student or 2 with scores in the high 90s.)
Well, if you think having a class average of 40% is bad, then you’re really not going to like this …
The Putnam competition is a national math exam for college students. A few thousand of the best college math students in the US and Canada take it each year. The exam is six hours long and has 12 questions, each worth 10 points. Partial credit is awarded.
The median score is usually 0 points out of 120 - in other words, oftentimes more than half of some of the nation’s top math students can’t get a single solitary point with six hours to work on the test.
^^Wow - That IS rough. Some of those kids will need counseling for years after getting a “0”!
Although, in that context, the entire purpose is to have a competition. A college class should aim teach a subject matter, not to winnow down the class to a winner.
I told my DDs about the grading scale for my OChem class: A 80-100, B 60-79, C 40-59, D 20-39 and F 0-19.
This is why I would caution a person who wants to be a science major from attending the most difficult schools if their stats are below the average.
My daughter is planning to be an engineer. The school she plans to attend says they are collaborative vs the competitive . I know they do offer lots of tutoring and certify each student tutor.
Remember this thread when someone says AP tests are easy because you can get a 5 with only 65 percent right (or whatever a particular test is). Whenever someone says that I think - yeah just like in college.
What you have to understand about math/physics/engineering is what you mean by “the material”. It isn’t things like “Paris is the capital of France.” It isn’t just memorizing a bunch of formulas. It is being able to apply those formulas and concepts to various problems. Professors have to set the bar somewhere as to just how challenging of problems the acceptable students should be able to solve at the level of the course. Some (rare) students will be able to solve the most challenging problems in the text, others will be able to solve more routine problems and will be able to continue successfully to future courses and hopefully continue to improve their understanding and problem solving abilities. In no way can one categorize this process as “only really grasping 50% of the information”, that’s just the wrong way to look at it.
I know you want to blame the professors - everyone does, but that said, my advice to your S would be to get a second (or third) text for the course he is retaking and work like heck at it over the summer on his own. If he really wants to step up to the next level of success, it’s on him - not the professor.
ETA: As for making the tests so difficult, it can really separate out those uber-exceptional students who the professors are likely to be encouraging to pursue grad school, yada, yada.
Putnam kids all know that the median score is usually 0. Many take it just to see if they can get partial credit on a problem. That’s the challenge for many.
I remember my freshman physics class. One midterm, the average was probably 50. I scored 39. There was one girl who got 90+. It was very difficult but in hindsight it wasn’t unreasonable. It tested what we learned but if you only had a superficial understanding of the material, you probably got at most half right. The students who internalized the material and were able to apply the concepts got 75% right. The student(s?) who was able to extend the material got the A. It was entirely possible to get a B but very difficult to get the A.
This is why a physics class, that covers the same material, can be so much harder at a state flagship university, than it is at a local CC or even some directional school. It’s not the material being covered, but the questions(problems) being asked.
Have we established that? We have established that the tests are harder at a flagship than what is covered in class. . The class at the CC may teach exactly the same material as the flagship but the tests may or may not be testing the same way. If we assume the tests at the CC only test what is taught, we can say the tests are easier but we still can’t say the class is easier if we’ve all admitted you can pass the flagship class by understanding what was covered in class.
I really don’t think flagships would award credit to CC transfers if the class was going to woefully underprepare them for the upper level classes.
With regard to gettingschooled’s final comment in #34, it depends a lot on the quality of the community college. Some states have strong community college systems, and the students are prepared for upper level university classes as well as students who started at the university. Some states have community college systems that are not as strong. I don’t know that I would go so far as to characterize the students as “woefully underprepared” in that case, but I have seen students who struggled in university courses, after transferring from a community college. The students managed to get through, but I think they would have had an easier time if their backgrounds had been stronger. I think they may not have been expecting the types of questions that appeared on the university exams, and needed to alter their study patterns. This is highly variable from state to state, and no doubt, from community college to community college.
This is why a student should not use AP credit to skip classes in their major no matter what.
If you know the material really well get your A and move on. Use the extra time on harder courses you are taking that semester.The A also allows you to get a C in a harder course later on without worrying about your cumulative GPA.
Never use AP credit in your major. That was our mantra.
@sax I strongly disagree. It really depends on the student. There should never be a blanket one-size-fits-all policy. I know our ds would have been bored to tears if he had had to repeat courses. He is the type of student who doesn’t just kinda understand what he learns. He studies until he has mastered the content and thoroughly understands the concepts. He can take that understanding and apply it to new situations. It is why as a college freshman he was able to walk into ECE 440 electromagnetic waves and be a top student in the class.
You want the student to waste time and tuition repeating what s/he already knows, rather than having more schedule space to take additional electives of interest (in or out of major) at the college? Or were the students pre-meds, or had to maintain a >= 3.5 GPA to get into their major or renew a scholarship necessary to keep the college affordable, creating an incentive to grade-grub?
Lots of students score 5 on the AP calculus exam and then continue on to calculus 2 or 3 in college for their majors and do fine. In addition, some students come in with AP credit for courses required by their majors but are not direct prerequisites for more advanced courses (e.g. chemistry for some non-chemical engineering majors); these can be safely skipped.
It is, however, advisable for students with AP credit who do want to take more advanced courses to try the college’s old final exams for the courses to be skipped before making the placement decision. E.g. a student who is allowed to skip calculus 1 with AP calculus AB credit should try the college’s old calculus 1 final exams before selecting calculus 2.
My son was a transfer student from a CC. It did have its disadvantages. Some might have been the testing methods, as QuantMech described in #35. In addition, the lack of lower division engineering courses meant that he got almost all of his humanities classes out of the way early, leaving him with a schedule at his university that was almost solely made up of harder engineering classes. This college waives a few lower division intro engineering classes for transfers, and I think that is a mistake.
Another disadvantage was not knowing how to “work the system” for lack of a better term. By that, I mean knowing at this particular college to drop a class if you are in the middle of the first curve, to know which teachers to take and which to avoid. Transfer students tend to get lost in the shuffle at a large school. (30,000 in this case). His assigned guidance counselor is never in her office and has never answered his many emails asking for help. It took him a long time to find out that everyone works around this particular counselor. A student starting out as a freshman would have figured all of this out long before reaching the upper division EE classes.
In CA, they are really starting to push the CC transfer route to the state schools. While it would be a big $$ saving, we are going to send our younger son straight to a state school out of HS for the very reasons we have been discussing.
). I believe this is one reason for the gender gap in the hard STEM subjects. Women are more easily discouraged by these grades, and just assume these majors are not for them. It happened to me 30 years ago, and I think it is still happening.