Skyoverme, I never said STEM majors can’t or don’t have other skills. I said that those who specifically pat themselves on the back and believe that STEM is the only repository for brains and that other fields of study are less valuable are likely not able to do much other than STEM. It’s abundantly clear that the designers of Facebook and Google don’t fall into that description. If a shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it.
Which part of the websites of colleges that use this weed out system explains that they purposely over enroll their engineering program and have a predetermined limited number of students who can earn each grade? Which part explains that the students aren’t graded against the material, but each other, and that it doesn’t matter how much they know – they could all, in fact, be A and B students – but 60 of every hundred will be weeded out? People can’t know what schools don’t tell them.
I’ve seen sites where it’s explained that you need to apply for the major and that you need X GPA to be admitted or that admission is competitive. So you ask. In fact, I am looking at schools now where it’s clearly stated that admission to creative writing classes or majors is by competitive application and I certainly intend to find out what the level of competition is as part of the college search with my daughter. At least with STEM, kids have a clearer idea where they might stand from prior performance in STEM classes and on the many tests they take in high school. What concerns me about the writing is that it can be very subjective.
@austinmshauri - here’s one example…
http://engineering.tufts.edu/bme/documents/handbookUndergrad2013-14.pdf
"Application Procedures for the BSBME Program
Those students who are interested in applying for the Bachelor of Science in Biomedical
Engineering must, by the end of their first term of their freshman year, take and complete for a
grade at Tufts the following set of five courses:
- ES 93.
- One of Math 32, Math 36, or Math 42.
- One of Phys 11, Phys 12, or any Physics course with Phys 12 as a prerequisite.
- One of Chem 1, Chem 2, or any Chemistry course with Chem 2 as a prerequisite.
The applicant must take and complete one course in each category even if the applicant has
previously earned Advanced Placement (AP) credit in that category via the appropriate placement
examination. For example, a student with two AP credits in Chemistry may not count those credits
as satisfying the requirement, but may use that placement to enroll in Chemistry 31 (Physical
Chemistry) or 51 (Organic Chemistry). Students must submit an application (available online at
http://engineering.tufts.edu/docs/BSBME_Application_Form.pdf) for admission into the BSBME
program before December 1st of their freshman year. Admission to the program is merit-based.
Of the students that will apply, 20 students will be admitted into the program according to the
following merit criteria:
• The 15 students obtaining the top first-semester grade point average, adjusted by
including a grade of A for each course in points 2-4 above for which the applicant has
received AP credit and has enrolled in a more advanced course in the same discipline in
the first term (in this case students must submit a copy of their AP scores with the
application to the BSBME program).
• Among the students who enroll in ES93-10 (Introduction to Biomedical Engineering) the 5
students obtaining the top grades in ES93-10 (excluding the 15 students already admitted
into the BSBME program on the basis of the adjusted first-semester grade point average).
For equal grades in ES93-10, the adjusted cumulative grade point average will serve as a
tie breaker."
In the pharmacy wannabees example, all of those students qualified to attend the University. They don’t tell people what to major in. The fairest thing is to let everyone who wants to try have a go at it. But the students also know what kind of GPA they need in order to be accepted to Pharmacy School. When I was an engineering student, it was well publicized that students needed a GPA of 3.8 to be accepted to Electrical, and every engineering field had a different threshold GPA based largely (I assume) on supply/demand. It is not as if any one course is going to mean the difference by itself (and they can try a course again, BTW). It is typically their overall GPA and the requirement that they pass X, Y, and Z with whatever minimum grade.
A student getting all A’s will be in the group meeting the GPA requirements. The reality is that in a large group of students, you are going to get a reasonable distribution of GPA’s, not a case where every student has a 4.0. And if someone has a 3.0 and the requirement is 3.8, then they would be aware of that from early on. Even if there were no advertising of that fact, word gets around.
@austinmshauri, I don’t think you will find all A and B students in any intro STEM class. The grade curves I have seen did not support this idea. If the mean was 60, there easily could have been students scoring 30 and students scoring 90. All A and B students?
If you get weeded out of pharmacy school, consider yourself lucky. Though that is a subject to its own thread. LOL
Typical stereotypes about STEM people are not worth commenting on.
Same with personal attacks.
I will ignore those and ignore in general
Have a nice day.
Agreed, but at least people do talk about this issue openly.
Some people will be able to find the info through forums or talking to students from their school who are not at those colleges.
The challenge is that there can be so much excitement about the other parts of going to college that asking the really hard questions is … hard.
It is like buying a Maybach. It is a fantastic car but parking it can be challenging and not every restaurant has trusted valet parking.
IMO there is a difference between a school saying “you need x gpa to major” (my kid’s LAC says this about her major) and “you will need to be better than X number of your classmates as determined by grade curve in each course” to major.
Even “we’re taking the top 20 gpas in this major” is fine if the student knows ahead of time and the course grades are based on the material, not the other students in the class. If I were a student I’d make sure i had a backup major if I weren’t in that top 20, but disclosure makes that planning possible.
For some engineering colleges, students need a better GPA than the minimum to get in the college and get into a given specialty.
And if the top 20 gpas get in a major, it doesn’t matter if grades are based on the material or the other students in the class. Either way you are measured against the other kids in the class.
Yes, but you know this before you choose that school (if, as in the case of Tufts, this info is spelled out and you look for it). And your “top 20” status is at least based on your mastery of the material as compared to other students, not on who else happens to be your particular class that semester.
When there are 200+ kids in the class, the range of abilities in the class is pretty much the same each year.
UIUC and Washington have lots of restricted majors, where one may need more than just a 2.0 GPA and C grades in prerequisites to enter. But they both have lists showing which majors require higher GPAs to enter, have criteria beyond grades/GPA, and/or have competitive admission. Would something like this satisfy the desire for disclosure of this issue in a way that is convenient for high school seniors and their parents to evaluate (of course, one would have to dig deeper for more information on each specific major)?
http://dgs.illinois.edu/declaring-your-major
http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/academic-planning/majors-and-minors/list-of-undergraduate-majors/
It comes down to a lot more than ability when discussing who can handle the work.
18yo kids, away from home, unsupervised for the first time.
might be the first time kids actually have to do significant homework.
coed dorms
no bed time
…
Most of the kids getting weeded out (except for the extreme cases eg 20 kids, or 3.8 GPA requirements) are getting weeded out or down (from the restricted 3.2 ABC engineering, to the open enrollment XYZ engineering because they they aren’t willing to put in the work that differentiates a 3.5 from a 2.8.
Not all classes are going to be killers. Almost always at least one easy A per semester if kids want to choose it.
Ideally, would be great to take it a step further similar to what people wanted “for-profit colleges” to disclose:
Disclose how many people enter the major and how many graduate from the major.
Of course, even without weeding and restrictions, you would have churn, but at least you know how significant the churn is. 90%? meh. no issue. 50%? hmmm…need to know more about what is going on.
How about a bit of international flavour? This article came out when one of mine was applying. The comment about Ivy League grading is particularly interesting.
http://occ.crescentschool.org/geography/worldissues/Articles/university.htm
For your amusement, this is where Mrs. Canuckguy earned an honours degree in microbiology and biochemistry. She still gets bad dreams about forgetting to study for the exam.
http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~registrar/calendars/calendar/Degrees.html
There was no interest in medicine…so why do it?
Since entrance to major happens at different stages (may occur at frosh admission, or any time after frosh entry until junior standing, and then there are also transfer students), that may not be as useful as you want when comparing different majors or colleges.
Here is one university’s tracking of retention and graduation in major:
http://www.iea.sjsu.edu/RetnGrad/
However, it only currently shows traditional tracking (based on student’s first declared major, which is often what the student was initially admitted to, since that university admits by major). Two other tracking methods are mentioned: conventional (based on student’s last declared major), and that university’s method (student’s major two years after frosh entry or one year after transfer entry).
Good link.
Yeah, there is no perfect way to do it for many different reasons, but I really like this line from the link you provided:
Good for them for taking the effort!
Remember also that those stats do not track admission to the major. Students who are unable to enter the major in the first place are not included in those stats (though they may be included in the stats for the major that they do enter instead).