Classes where average grade % is failing - is this common?

I don’t think anyone has advocated testing students on material they really have “not been taught”.

But giving them permutations they haven’t seen before is a minimal essential. The aim isn’t to reward memorization or mindless regurgitation. It’s to develop critical thinking skills and the ability to apply their knowledge to situations they haven’t encountered before.

Teaching students how to think is the true goal of an education, and something that will benefit them long after they’ve forgotten the specific content of their class.

No. It is NOT essential ON AN EXAM. That is an old white male prof way of thinking – because all the old white male profs before them did it that way.

This is just vague enough not to mean anything. Just like “we need to educate our youth” or “we will make our country great again.”

You don’t become a critical thinker from getting exam questions that test a variation of the material that no sane person would be expected to know within the time constraint in which the test is given (this applies to take-home exams as well).

These responses have crystallized the difference in perspectives better than I ever could.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case. :slight_smile:

^Sorry, that is a complete non-sequitur to the two posts above it. Your argument has no logic behind it. The teaching should take place in the classroom and lab and on assignments. Not during the exam.

Also, I notice your multi-point treatise earlier in the thread does not address the gender difference in how male and female students tend to respond to the approach that results in very low percentage scores on tests. But I think your ego requires making sure that your students know that YOU could do all the problems as you have set them out, so any issues are theirs. You are one of those divas my kid talks about – and probably one of the ones she can’t stand.

Not all males like that approach either. It seems to be most popular among that subset of students who enjoy academic competition, which is more common among male than female students.

I don’t really mind harsh grading. I do mind grading standard that varies from school to school and from discipline to discipline. The only way out that I can see is to have a standardized exit exam for all college grads. I am sure many parents and employers would welcome such a development.

Anyone familiar with what they are trying to do in Purdue? Sounds like a great idea to me.

http://wbaa.org/post/can-test-show-how-purdue-students-grow-and-it-even-worth-it

Been busy lately; happy to be back.

Are kids in high school not expected to apply concepts learned to unique problem sets on tests? I do expect it from my kids. An A means that they have mastered content in a way that they can apply the concepts to problems, not just replicate the concepts. I honestly cannot imagine that NOT being the goal of any quality education.

I agree with the post by Mom2aphysicsgeek, that it is very important for students to be able to apply concepts that they have learned, in order to solve problems of types that they have not seen previously. I think this happens in some courses in good high schools.

In some high school STEM courses, and at the freshman level in college, textbooks may set out learning objectives, which list the types of problems that students should be able to solve, for each chapter. This corresponds to “the material.” If a course is based on a textbook of this type, the exams tend to contain problems for which the method of solution has been pre-taught. Some college freshman STEM classes do not operate this way, though.

Above the freshman level in college, in my experience, it is rare for students to see many problems that they have solved previously, when they are taking an exam. In math and physics, I would say that this happened approximately “never” on exams I took after freshman year.

The reason for this is not professorial nefariousness, nor ego, nor trying to winnow out the class–at least, not in most cases. There could be a few . . .

It is important for someone who goes into a STEM field to be able to solve all sorts of problems they have not seen before, in the course of their work. They will be encountering large numbers of them. The ability to take what one has learned and combine that knowledge with logic to solve new problems is just genuinely important. By “new,” I don’t mean problems at the very frontiers of research. And certainly not on exams! Those problems often take years to solve.

There is also a practical reason–a semester’s worth of lectures equals 45 hours, give or take. The course topics are listed in the catalog. It is impossible in 45 hours, or even 45 hours + problem sets, to cover all of the situations in which the course concepts can be applied, and give students practice with each of them. Education should empower students to solve all of the types of problems they can, with what they know. It should also enable them to identify problems for which they don’t have enough knowledge yet. (I mean this in a good way–there are concepts that are deferred for graduate school, if the students go there.)

Comments on the Putnam and more importantly on gender issues to follow–this is pretty long already.

@intparent “Going to be honest – I don’t think an exam is the place to give kids material they have not been taught (or permutations they have not seen in homework or lab assignments) and expect them to figure it out. You aren’t teaching the material iIf that is how you write a test.”

At its core, that is what engineering is. Applying knowledge to problems in new ways. Being able to take techniques from examples they have see and apply them to the infinite permutation that they haven’t is exactly what is being tested in engineering. There is little value in being able to memorize the steps for solving a problem they have seen already.

Going back to the discussion before of the question for the D student to get right, the one for the C student to get right, etc. Repeats of problems they have seen before, fall squarely in the C/D group in many engineering classes.

In a way, this is no different to exams in other college subjects. A good history test doesn’t ask you to regurgitate analysis you have already done, instead it will ask you to apply your knowledge to analyze a situation that hasn’t previously been discussed.

Going into the Putnam exam, students know that a) the problems tend to be quite challenging, b) the students who take the Putnam exam at all tend to be top math students, though taking it is open to anyone who signs up, and c) the scores on the Putnam exam tend to be very low, as percentages.

The year I took the Putnam exam, I scored a 0, like the majority of those who took the test, despite working all 6 hours on it (two three-hour sessions with separate problems and a lunch break in between). My husband-to-be scored an awesome 4, out of 120 points possible (not a typo). This may even have been junior year. Senior year, when I was much better prepared (I woulda clobbered that thing! ha ha), I could not take the exam, due to a conflict with a specific GRE date required for a fellowship application.

I came out of this experience okay.

Kudos to Mr. Fang!

The more difficult problems for A students generally will be those where the students will need to put together what they learned in different ways. Obviously, the test should also contain some C student problems that just test the minimum passing expectations of what the student knows and can apply. However, even C students need to be able to apply concepts learned in class to types of problems not seen in class; when they take the next class in sequence, they need to apply concepts in this class to problems that they see in the next class.

What do age, race, and gender have to do with this? (I remember that some female faculty had reputations for giving very difficult tests.)

Then, on the gender issue: This is a real issue. I have read Eileen Pollack’s book, The Only Woman in the Room, and been troubled by the circumstances that turned her away from physics. She completed a really wonderful senior thesis in physics at Yale, but was not encouraged by any of the professors to continue to grad school. In general, I think that undergrads (perhaps women especially) may greatly over-estimate the knowledge and experience distance between themselves and the faculty. This may be a bigger issue at top schools.

STEM undergrads do not need to go to grad school. But I think Prof. Pollack might have wanted to do that, and a little encouragement could have sent her in that direction. I doubt that her story is unique.

Without succumbing to gender stereotyping, I think it is true that women may react somewhat differently to setbacks than men do (on average). Data from a largish group of universities in my field tend to show lower odds of PhD completion by women than by men. If men who enter the university as grad students complete their PhDs with a probability of x (x < 1 virtually everywhere), then the women at the same university tend to complete their PhDs with the lower probability of x squared. We also lose women at the transition from undergrad work to grad school. Again, there is no need for people to go on to grad school–but we would like to offer the opportunity to anyone who is interested in it, and has a reasonably good undergraduate record.

In practical terms, there are a few steps that can be taken:

The use of set percentage guarantees for grades eliminates feelings of head-to-head competition, which women may enjoy less than men, or not enjoy at all.

If the course does not have set percentages, then it is useful if the distribution of scores is provided by the professor. Most of mine did that. There was a memorable midterm exam sophomore year where the mode was 4 (out of 100) and the median was 28. The great majority of the students who scored below the median and stuck with the class still passed. In a case like this, it may actually be useful to encourage daughters to compare their performance with the rest of the class. If the median is 28, then any score above 38 is great!

Encouraging daughters to talk with grad students (if they are at a university) is helpful, and it will give them a different perspective.

The New York Times Sunday magazine carried a story about the difference between “Worriers” and “Warriors” about a year ago, with reference to exam performance. The “Warriors” were those who loved competition, and tended to do better on standardized tests and other high-stakes exams than one might have predicted. “Worriers” worried about a large number of contingencies, became anxious, and tended to do worse on the tests than one might have predicted. The effects of this could be counteracted by showing the “Worriers” that a certain amount of nervousness would actually enhance their performance.

There is another gender issue that is less easily counteracted: As I understand it, women react differently than men to the molecules the body produces in stress situations (cortisol, I think? plus others). The only solution that I know of to this is to get beyond the stage where there are timed, written exams, and grow comfortable with conference presentations, by making them.

There is still bias, implicit and explicit, but as more women enter STEM fields, I think bias will be less common (though sadly, probably not gone).

Totally disagree. If you are going to give the exact same problem they did for homework (with different numbers, at least, maybe?) then all they have to do is memorize the homework problems.

Newsflash - I assign homework problems from the course textbook (you might think I should make up my own, but as an adjunct I hardly get paid as it is). Unfortunately, the solutions to the textbook problems are ALL available online in one place or another. Some students get by on the homework copying solutions from the internet or from each other. So in your world, a student can copy homework from the internet, memorize it for the exam, and get out of the course with an A and zero actual knowledge.

Exams are one place where I get to see whether the student actually has a clue or is just trying to fake his/her way through. Unfortunately, when I teach sophomore engineering courses I often find students who don’t have any idea what they are doing, but who keep getting passed up the line.

Put me in al2simon’s camp on this.

I think this is fairly common at the very competitive colleges. In my son’s math class a 50% was an A in his calculus class.

Great post @QuantMech Your point about comparing yourself to the median is key. Again back to my 15 year old- “But the class median was a 50 so my 48 was not so bad.” Ill-advised parent “I don’t care about everyone else, I care about you. And a 48 is not cutting it.”

Is part of the problem that kids are not usually exposed to this concept in high school where the 90-100 scale is the norm? And is part of the problem that some professors don’t explain the exam scores with a warning that last semester a 50 was an A? No experience and no context increase stress.

We’ve talked about women and their reaction, but I think this is perhaps more dangerous to a first generation student who doesn’t have someone to help put it into context. Could this grading style account for some of the data we have seen about minority students dropping STEM majors in undergrad?

So why not set up the exam so it is the final 10% (90-100) of the problems that require synthesizing across what is learned – so only the truly top student get those? And the next 10% (80-90) require some but not the most rigorous level? These exams where the averages are falling around 50% or lower are simply poorly written and unnecessary, or the material is not being taught well – but it is the way it has always been done, and I would argue that the exams are mostly written by profs who have thrived in the “Warrior” (nerd warrior, to be sure, but men will take whatever competitive arena they can get) culture of STEM. I would also take issue with the idea that classroom, homework, and lab assignments are just for teaching the regurgitatable components, and only on the exam can students exercise and show their ability to put the info together. If that is the critical skill, then spend more time teaching and practicing it and having students work on it – don’t expect them to just brilliantly deduce at exam time. I know the old approach is deeply ingrained in our system, but that doesn’t make it the only or best way to teach.

In my experience the curve was always posted, and it was generally announced what grade the median or mean represented and often all the other grades were shown on the published curve. I think a STEM student who can’t understand that probably shouldn’t continue in STEM. Honestly it was more transparent than at my kids’ high school where apparently random “curving” (ie propping up grades) sometimes takes place, and where poorly-defined “extra credit” can be earned, and where after the exam, sometimes new ways to prop up grades are invented (eg. how about we all go home and study and come back and work on that paper again?). Maybe students are expecting all this cushioning in college, I don’t know.

@intparent, if you believe that exams should just consist of regurgitating the exact same problems the students have already done, with different numbers, then when would you support the professors being able to test their problem solving ability? Should they be given take-home exams for this? Or do you believe it’s not appropriate to expect STEM students ever to solve problems which are in any way new to them, even though they have been taught all the concepts and techniques they need to solve the problems?

The “how about we all go back and re study approach” has happened a few times in our school and I see it as acknowledgement by the teacher that they didn’t teach the subject well and the majority of students failed what should not have been a hard test.

In our case it’s an acknowledgement that the students didn’t study much. How is another day of studying going to change the fact that the teacher–who has been teaching the same class for 20 years–somehow didn’t teach the subject well this time? My kid did just fine on the first go. Kids who were on facebook the night before not so much.