Classical experts, do you recognize this at all?

Rhapsody_in_Green · April 15, 2007, 12:33am

It’s kind of hard to grasp the music Joshua Bell was playing from the short excerpts, but I’d highly highly highly reccomend looking up a recording of it. He was playing some of Bach’s unaccompanied Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin, which, speaking as a violinist, is some of the most incredible music ever written. Joshua Bell’s a good violinist, but go for Arthur Grumiaux if you can, because his recording of it is better.

If you don’t want to buy it because you’re afraid you won’t like it, I’ll email you a few tracks if you’re interested. It’s very much worth it.

mommusic · April 15, 2007, 6:38am

The OP might like Rachmaninoff. Try the 1st or 2nd piano concerto or the Variations on a Theme of Paganini. Virtuoso piano crowd-pleasers. :)

mhe1492 · April 15, 2007, 5:12pm

RIG, lets start with just one track (what a diffecult choice for you to make, hah?) accompanied with your own comment/“interpretation”/description if possible.

You’ll find my Email in you CC inbox. Will you be sending web-links or audio files? (the latter may be too large to be emailed)

StickerShock, Allmusic, JHS, mathmom, marite, mommusic, you folks have great suggestion (of course, now, it all sonds to me like “شِعرُ أَبي العَتَاهِيَةْ” would sound to you) but things are going crazy around here and I really can’t afford to look into this right now.

I’ll be back shortly with more questions though.

mhe1492 · April 16, 2007, 12:00am

OMG!! I just typed vivaldi in WinMX and clicked download on the first result. It didn’t complete downloading, and it sounds electronic (not real instruments) but WOW… G R E A T! All it said “Carol Nethan” that’s just the performer? but no piece name

mhe1492 · April 16, 2007, 12:17am

I just listened to 29 sec. sample of some opera (i googled Le nozze di Figaro) The lyrics ruin it for me since I cant understand it, they really dominate the amzing music.

marite · April 16, 2007, 12:36am

Glad you liked Le Nozze di Figaro. Usually, opera-goers get a synopsis of the story. You can also find the whole libretto (“the lyrics”) if you google online. 
Vivaldi: The best-known piece is the Four Seasons. Is that what you listened to?

I also love choral music. My favorite has to be JS Bach’s St Matthew’s Passion. It’s in German. Mozart’s Vesperae Solennes de Confessore has a lovely aria “Laudate.” His Mass in C-Minor also has a wonderful aria.

mommusic · April 16, 2007, 6:45am

You could try Mozart without words–lots of piano concertos, 2 flute concertos, 41 Symphonies…

Isn’t Vivaldi great? I had a music history professor who described the era as “We’ve discovered tonality!” And that is a pretty good description of the early Baroque era–moving from music that was basically modal to a new “major/minor” way of thinking. They would delightedly base a piece on about 3 chords because this sound was so new.

This delight in rediscovered simplicity occurs many times in music history, most recently in early Rock music. Remember when parents accused kids of listening to music that had only 3 chords? But it had a BEAT! ;)

Allmusic · April 16, 2007, 7:12am

I think if one is really trying to learn about classical music, it is best to listen to pieces without lyrics. Choral music is lovely, but is more about language, voice, etc., and less about the orchestral arrangement that accompanies it.

So, I’d listen to Vivaldi’s “Four Seasons” before “Gloria” (although the latter is a lovely work)!

mhe1492 · April 24, 2007, 9:18pm

This is going to be long: first, I must justify why I thought those samples to which I linked sounded like classical. To do so I must provide some background, and to do this I must include audiable samples

No one has to listen to the whole thing of course, though you’re more than wellcome to. Only make sure you hear different “parts” of the song.

<a href=“http://songs.6arab.com/omkalthoom..fakkarooni.ram[/url]”>http://songs.6arab.com/omkalthoom..fakkarooni.ram</a>

<a href=“http://songs1.6arab.com/omkalthoom..enta-fain-wel7ob-fain.ram[/url]”>http://songs1.6arab.com/omkalthoom..enta-fain-wel7ob-fain.ram</a>

<a href=“http://songs.6arab.com/omkolthoom..ghaneeli-sheway-sheway1.ram[/url]”>http://songs.6arab.com/omkolthoom..ghaneeli-sheway-sheway1.ram</a>

That was Umm Kulthum (Um Kalthoom), “The Lady,” “the countess of Egypt,” “The Star of the East.” And though she was accused of not following the rules of her era, she literally dominated the musical scene in the 40s, 50s, 60s and “…even today, she has retained a near mythical status amongst young Arabs.” per wikipedia. (just ask ANYONE who knows anything about the middle east about her). Although she could have been classified as “pop” by fellow performers and composers, it really is the definition of “authentic” eastern music. More of her songs:
<a href=“http://www.altarab.com/egypt/omkalthoom.html[/url]”>http://www.altarab.com/egypt/omkalthoom.html</a>

(JHS [and others], did that sound like the “super-lush, string-based, highly melodic orchestrations” refered to earlier? or that was not even close?
I read a little about chanson, and immediately thought of Fairouz (she’s in her 80s now I think):
<a href=“http://songs.6arab.com/fayrooz..bektob-esmak.ram[/url]”>http://songs.6arab.com/fayrooz..bektob-esmak.ram</a>

<a href=“http://music.6arab.com/fairooz..adeesh-kan-fee-naas.ram[/url]”>http://music.6arab.com/fairooz..adeesh-kan-fee-naas.ram</a>

More: <a href=“http://www.altarab.com/lebanon/fayrooz.html[/url]”>http://www.altarab.com/lebanon/fayrooz.html</a>

Am I getting closer?)

Now fast forward to the 1990s: here is how (arabic) pop sound(ed) like. Contrast this to the samples of Umm Kulthum. Also, keep in mind that this is far different from the regional folk, yet slightly influenced by it:

<a href=“http://songs1.6arab.com/3ajaj+moneer..ya-donya.ram[/url]”>http://songs1.6arab.com/3ajaj+moneer..ya-donya.ram</a> Egypt (south)

<a href=“http://songs1.6arab.com/amar..el-laila-doob.ram[/url]”>http://songs1.6arab.com/amar..el-laila-doob.ram</a> Egypt (north)

<a href=“http://5aleej.6arab.com/anooshkaa..ya-laily.ram[/url]”>http://5aleej.6arab.com/anooshkaa..ya-laily.ram</a> Egypt/Armenia/France

<a href=“http://5aleej.6arab.com/songs/5aleeji/miami/miami..shelooha-shaila.ram[/url]”>http://5aleej.6arab.com/songs/5aleeji/miami/miami..shelooha-shaila.ram</a> Kuwait (notice the south asian influence)

<a href=“http://music.6arab.com/5alid-6aha-fathel..3abdelqader(7afla).ram[/url]”>http://music.6arab.com/5alid-6aha-fathel..3abdelqader(7afla).ram</a> Morroco/Algeria. Some words are French I think. Follow the violin?

<a href=“http://songs.6arab.com/kathem..3alamani-7obboki1.ram[/url]”>http://songs.6arab.com/kathem..3alamani-7obboki1.ram</a> (from the ninties as well) The notorious Iraqi composer/performer Kathem Alsahir (Kazim). The lyrics are, of course, Nizzar Qabani’s… Not quite “pop” (though very popular due to romantic lyrics of top quality). I included this one to contrast it with the Egyption & Lebanese modern pop which presently dominates the arab world and sets the “financial” standards for others to follow (kinda like in the world of rap and pop here in US: “if you want to make easier money stick with crunk/party/fast-paced/no-lyrical-value stuff.”)

You see? A great difference between “authentic” (Umm Kulthum, Kathem and Fairooz) and the kids’ party stuff? Though Umm Kulthum’s does exhibit a slight western influence, but it’s different from that party music. And this is where I’m trying to get: Starting with Umm Kulthum (more eastern) to the Rahbani bros. & Fairouz (now I know is more French, right?) to Majidah Elroumi, they all borrow something from Europian music–what is it?

“Could you find us some real Lebanese music to listen to? With oud and drums?”

I know exactly what you’re talking about; any one on this list will do:
<a href=“http://www.altarab.com/lebanon/wadee3.html[/url]”>http://www.altarab.com/lebanon/wadee3.html</a>

The thing is, this genre is so classic (I’m talking 5-10 centuries classic) that almost no one even knows it still exists, and the majority, if not all, of middle easterners consider it torturous to listen to it. Also, considering that the heritage of that region has been in decline and defeat since the moors were expelled from Spain, this guy (and many others) make no sense by ignoring any “foreign” influence on their culture/music. Bottom line: besides music professionals, no one likes this music nowadays, and one wouldn’t even know about this genre unless they study the history of Arabic arts. This is simply too old of a genre to calibrate anything from the last 50 years to it.

<hr>

Marite, I’ve heared the Four Seasons b4, and it wasn’t it that I heared last week.

“Isn’t Vivaldi great? I had a music history professor who described the era as “We’ve discovered tonality!” And that is a pretty good description of the early Baroque era–moving from music that was basically modal to a new “major/minor” way of thinking. They would delightedly base a piece on about 3 chords because this sound was so new.”

You know, mommusic, I don’t know what you’re talking about–“tonality,” “major/minor,” “three chords,” all this sounds Swahili to me unless I hear
It was great indeed. But how? why? . . . . cant say

So i basically have two options, either ask everyone who suggested/likes something to take time off and find & post a link to it, or I can print out this thread and take it with me to Barnes & Noble… OR!!! I can take my laptop there on a weekend and make it a B&N and CC sunday…Yes! <— would it look funny with a laptop at the music section?

You can wake up now.

mommusic · April 24, 2007, 9:44pm

mel–thanks, I look forward to educating myself with the help of your links!

As for you, might I suggest a book such as “Classical Music for Dummies”–(I hate these book titles but they are useful.) Something rather basic, along with listening to some of our suggestions or the ones in the book. Cause I don’t think we can get very far discussing music without some terminology in common. Or without being next to a piano for demonstration purposes.

I understand what you mean by the oud & drum music being classical in an ancient and obsolete way. The same way Gregorian chant of the year 1200 doesn’t reflect the current or recent state of sacred church music, or the music of Shakespeare’s day is so far removed from anything in the last hundred years here, whether classical OR pop.

But it is interesting that musicians from many countries have discovered the roots of music from other countries. I am amazed by some of the fusion I hear going on (tho some of it is more successful than others.)

Example: You must know the beautiful song “Misirlou” tho perhaps under another name. Look it up on Wikipedia for a great discourse on cross-fertilization in music. From its origins in 1920s Greece, to the USA, the song found fame in a Beach Boys version as well as a guitar solo by Dick Dale, who was of Lebanese extraction (I read elsewhere that his father played oud.) This is the rockin’ version used in the movie “Pulp Fiction.” Wild. Those of us who like to do folk dancing prefer the slow and sinuous original. ;)

mommusic · April 24, 2007, 11:34pm

I couldn’t open many of the links from the 90s, but what I heard was a nice tour from early to recent.

The Umm Kulthum was to my ears “authentic” and that is what I was asking for in my “oud and drums” request. Vocal and violin plus drums or whatever, the point is the music is primarily melodic. They are either singing the melody, playing around with it, or playing a countermelody, but the musical structure can be described as horizontal.

In contrast to that, Western music is vertical. And I’m not sure I can explain it without using terminology such as “chords.” You can hear it strongly in the 2nd Fairouz song, where the orchestra plays French-influenced (or Western) accompaniment.

Chords are made of several notes played at the same time, and they have a function. Some chords sound best at the beginning and end of a phrase, while others function in the middle and seem to “lead” to the ending or resting chord. The chords accompany the melody, which can be a nice thing, or they can “ruin” the beautiful Eastern melody by squeezing it into a Western straitjacket. IMO. (This depends on the skill of the arranger.)

Does this make any sense at all? Musicologists have terms–heterophony, where everyone plays some version of the melody, and homophony, which pretty much describes Western music (except for polyphony, but I am not going there! Listen to a Bach fugue sometime if you’re curious.) In homophony, there are harmonies formed by the vertical alignment of the notes being played or sung. The music is chordal, if I may use that term now.

Another way of explaining the Eastern/Western difference is the presence or absence of a bass line. What you hear the electric bass playing in the modern Arabic or party music is a functional bass line, which is not present in the earlier Eastern music. The bass line in Western music defines the harmonic motion, or the chordal structure. When we analyze a piece, this is one of the things we look at. We wouldn’t analyze a piece by Umm Kulthum that way because there IS no bass line. There is a melody that winds about, or uses or is dependant upon a tonal center (my poor description–apologies for not knowing terminology that your musicians would use.) And there is lots of rhythm, of course. :)

mathmom · April 25, 2007, 10:44am

Another thing you might enjoy doing if you can’t actually take an intro music class is go to the library and see if it has some music lectures on tape. I recently listed to a history of Jazz because I’ve always felt like I wish I knew more.

Classical experts, do you recognize this at all?

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