@ohiodad51 Clearly, if the student did not try on the test, and the score was not representative of his ability, then that score is completely irrelevant. As I mentioned earlier, my comments are contingent on it reflecting his ability. Apparently, that was not the case. I am sure that some athletes would think it is funny to do the minimum.
@boolaHI “I know they had recruits, who would be prime anywhere else, ACT 27-29, or the mid 80 percentiles, but they would have to place the recruit in a 5th year prep school, to raise the score to 30. That tells me that on an admission basis, things were taken still very seriously…”
I am a little surprised that the are expected to score a 30, but, whatever the established level, the point that they are expected to have sufficient abilities to give them a reasonable chance to pass classes with a C and actually get an education seems very good to me. They are actually expected to be students who happen to play a sport, not professional athletes pretending to be students. That is how it should be.
Well, what we know about the Ivy schools, once you are in, while certainly not easy, its very difficult to fail. I wrote about this prior, but at a place like Y, the actual cost of instruction is actually closer to 150K per student, annually. And if getting a 28-29 on your ACT is considered “skating by”, then well, they are in good shape.
“Speaking of the band system in the Ivy, I think it is important to note that we are only talking about football.”
Bands I think yes. But the Ivy AI index system (which started with football only) now applies to all teams.
I think you are splitting hairs about coach vs. admission office. Below is what the NY times article above reports about the parameters the Ivies give to its coaches. Seems like the admissions office is close to delegating to the coach primary authority to figure out how to use his chits:
“Football teams, which are allowed to support an average of 30 recruits a year in the admissions process, are also regulated in four A.I. bands spaced from low to high, with each band’s A.I. rising by about 10 points. Al Bagnoli, the Penn football coach, said last year that he was given 2 spots in the lowest band, 8 in the second band, 12 in the third and 8 in the highest.”
@much2learn, there are no football players anywhere in the Big Ten “who do the minimum”. The work those kids put in every day is immense. Add to the requirements of their sport that many come from challenging academic and home environments, and the fact that many manage to graduate is laudable. This is even more true when you consider that at most big time schools the system is designed solely to keep the kids eligible, not get them a degree.
At the risk of repeating myself, the test simply did not matter in terms of whether the kid would attend his chosen school. Maybe your experience teaches you that teenagers always give maximum effort to things of no consequence, but mine has been different.
As far as the Ivy goes, a 8-10 of the 30 football recruits each year have stats above the average in the four preceding classes, another dozen or so have stats within one half of a single deviation of that average, and the rest have stats between one half and two standard deviations below the mean, only two of whom can have stats more than a single deviation off the four year average.
And then those kids get to spend 20-30 hours a week at a minimum in intense physical activity. The commitment in non Ivy D1 is even higher. It isn’t easy to do. That is why pretty much every study that has been done shows that those kids do manage to get their degree have a greater chance of experiencing success post bachelor’s degree than the kids who “deserve” to be there because they took the SAT six times and spent their summers in math camp rather than puking in the weight room.
Sorry for the rant, particularly if I misinterpreted the implied condescension in your post. But having been an athlete at a “good school” who came from a high school environment far different from most of my college classmates makes me a bit touchy when talking about the “advantages” football players have.
@northwesty, yes the AI applies to all athletes. In fact, an AI number is generated for each admit. My point is that we do not know how a particular Ivy values being a field hockey recruit say over being a sought after vocalist. I think often times people assume that being an athletic recruit means more because they are judging being a designated recruit with being someone who participates in a given EC. I think it is important to remember that nowhere near every kid who plays a sport is a recruited athlete. At the absolute maximum, across all sports, there can be no more than 230 supported athletes in any matriculating class, although the reporting is that schools generally support far fewer. I would really be interested to know how much being a musician with the perceived desirability of a recruited athlete matters to admissions.
Ohio – no offense taken. The athletes themselves definitely work for and earn their spots and scholarships. No question about that. It is not an easy path at all.
The point of my long digression about the importance of small time college sports is to respond to the usual tsk tsk comments about how bad Alabama and North Carolina are and how people are shocked (shocked!!) about how/why such colleges compromise their integrity in the interest of sports. Usually capped off with a “Why do colleges have sports at all???”
My point is that, for better or worse, sports are deeply woven into American higher ed at all levels. In its own way, a tiny non-revenue D3 like Williams (40% athletes) is more consumed by sports than Alabama is (3% athletes).
@northwesty, I honestly don’t care much about admissions standards, because I think that people who show the dedication necessary to be that successful at a given sport add something to a community in much the same way that an equally talented musician, robotics guy, or a chess player does. I don’t know about you, but I learned a lot more in college from the people around me than in class from my professors.
I do object to the control schools like Alabama exert over their athlete’s schedules and general academic endeavors. I think that is a big difference between the Alabama’s and William’s of the world. But yeah, sports are part and parcel of the University culture in the US. Personally, I think that is a net positive, because I think sports can teach us lessons that you can not learn in many other places.
@northwesty This is true, for all the stereotypes of southern sports mania, one need only step on campus at Amherst, Williams, Dartmouth, Wesleyan,…etc, and you will experience a ubiquitous jock-esque feel to the campus…
@ohiodad51 I think you misunderstood my attempt to acknowledge your point.
You said “Realistically, he was smart enough to know he could probably meet NCAA eligibility standards by not really trying at all. Being 17, that is what he did. He and his buddies all thought it was funny.”
In response to that, I replied, “Clearly, if the student did not try on the test, and the score was not representative of his ability, then that score is completely irrelevant. As I mentioned earlier, my comments are contingent on it reflecting his ability. Apparently, that was not the case. I am sure that some athletes would think it is funny to do the minimum.”
@ohiodad51 “Sorry for the rant, particularly if I misinterpreted the implied condescension in your post.”
“Well, what we know about the Ivy schools, once you are in, while certainly not easy, its very difficult to fail”
Hmmmm. The thing is, if you are in a tough major, you will be doing at least an extra year, and you will be working a lot with tutors. I knew some kids who left Ivy athletics because they couldn’t handle the coursework.
Also I know at least one Ivy, and at least one other top tier school, will send tutors on the bus. And even my bottom tier state school, D1 though, will send tutors on away trips to keep the students up on their studies.
Imagine if the run-of-the-mill kids had that level of support. Yet still, about 1/3rd of that athletes I teach my freshman course to are failing. They all but take the tests for them, and it’s not enough.
@northwesty, yep. It is one of the things that makes what those schools are doing by competing in Power 5 leagues (except Rice) really amazing. Getting kids through some of the best schools in the country while competing head to head with schools who are frankly warehousing football players (SEC schools generally have a six year graduation rate, the same rate quoted above, around 70%) until their eligibility is exhausted is laudable.
@muchtolearn, I was responding primarily to the “some athletes would think it funny to do the minimum” and “they are actually expected to be students who happen to play a sport.” But in any event, no worries.
“I do object to the control schools like Alabama exert over their athlete’s schedules and general academic endeavors. I think that is a big difference between the Alabama’s and William’s of the world.”
Ohio – On this we agree.
The contract with big time student athletes is being reworked on many fronts, including in the courts. I think those kids currently don’t get a fair deal. But I’d prefer not to go down the path of more money and more professionalism (which is one likely outcome). Instead, I’d like to see the time commitment be significantly reduced and the educational benefits strengthened.
As you know I’m sure, the NCAA has a 20-hour work week rule which is a complete joke. As the opinion in the Northwestern union case describes in great detail, it is really 40+ hours a week. But half or more of those hours don’t count towards the 20 limit.
One of my kids was a D3 athlete at a small school and his schedule (all in) was way more than 20 a week.
@rhandco Hmmn, that may be a tad anecdotal, as I know, that the six year graduation rate, say at HYP, is almost 99%, which basically says, short of a terminal illness and you NOT wanting to graduate, you will by all probabilities graduate.
I was being sarcastic that any athlete is as dumb as a rock. They are all in college, they’ve figured out how to get there whether it’s Yale or Slippery Rock, they’ve figured out how to pay for it. Someone who didn’t get into Penn or Yale can complain that it isn’t fair, but at the end of the day, the athlete figured out a way to get in.
Last night I was at a party and we were of course discussing colleges. Someone told a story of a friend who had gone to Caltech but left after 2 years because everyone was just like him, smart but reserved. He wanted a little more excitement, but no one knew how to be social. He transfered to a UC, then to Stanford for grad, and now is a researcher at Cal. Having a lot of really smart people doesn’t always make for a successful student body.
The 6 year graduation rate for ivies ranges from 93% to 97%. It is certainly uncommon to not graduate, but that is quite different from saying it is very difficult to fail. The ivies generally admit stellar students who are extremely unlikely to fail out at which ever college they choose to attend. If the ivies did not have an extremely high graduation rate for such students, something would be catastrophically wrong. If you look at predicted graduation rate based on stats of the incoming class and compare to the actual graduation rate, a few of the ivies actually have a lower graduation rate than expected (depending on methodology).
Plenty of students at such colleges do not need an extra year and tutors for tough majors, including athletes. For example, in the 4 years I was an on-campus student at Stanford I completed a bachelors and master’s in electrical engineering, and also started on a 2nd masters in a different engineering field. I did this while being on a sports team (not all 4 years and not while working), having part time jobs, starting a small company, doing the pre-med track, etc. That said it is common for athletes in certain sports, like football, to redshirt one year and graduate in 5 years, but the reasons for redshirting are generally not driven by major choice.
And I standby my original statement; if only 2 percent are not graduating within six years, for whatever the reason, from my vantage, I say its difficult to fail. You can come to your own conclusions, the qualitative portion of those results, speak for themselves…
Graduation rates are mostly a function of the academic chops that the students bring with them.
Yale admits outstanding students because of its high academic standards. So Yale has outstanding graduation rates.
Even if Yale athletes are a little less qualified than some, they are still plenty more than able to earn a degree. As would many of the qualified kids that get rejected by Yale.
But if the athletes are in the lower ranges of the overall enrollment, they may struggle more than some.