<p>What is the date on the link provided in post #16?</p>
<p>(May be outdated…)</p>
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</p>
<p>Not a one?!</p>
<p>I was one. But that doesn’t mean I didn’t also occassionally drink enough to get mildly drunk at parties.</p>
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<p>Why, exactly, are so many of today’s kids too wimpy to have sex when sober?</p>
<p>It takes social skills, Marian. Also means that it’s not “something you did while drunk.” It’s serious and has strings attached.</p>
<p>Under the rules of hooking-up–yes. Better to be drunk.</p>
<p>I think they still do have sex, just not high rates (which can be interpreted to mean frequent one-night stands, not with the same partner). I expect that many when sober are still torn between physical urges and their middle-class values that in today’s world still demand that even if you are not married, you should at least be serious about or have feelings for your partner - and to behave how it is expected of you, not how you really want to. Social mores do not have quite the same restraining influence when under the “influence”).</p>
<p>“no. We actually have data on this question. The higher drinking age has resulted in very significant reductions in drinking among college-age students, much lower rate of alcohol-related traffic accidents, etc. We have side-by-side studies from the early 80s (where one state would have an 18-year-age, and one 21) that indicate the laws work. And we have lots of data showing that some colleges can, and do reduce their binge drinking/heavy drinking rates when they choose to do so. It isn’t rocket science.”</p>
<p>I vehemently disagree. I lived in Italy for four years and attended an American DOD school. Although, laws in Italy prohibit consumption under the age of sixteen, virtually anyone who can see over the counter can buy a drink (I saw a group of ten year olds buy a bottle of Superior once, which I confiscated from them). Initially, when Americans moved to Italy, they would go crazy and drink all they could. They would drink until they fell over, puked, and passed out. From afar my American friends and I would jestingly dub them as “dumb Americans”, even though we had done the same at first. After a brief period of time, the phase would ware off and “the dumb Americans” would generally become responsible alcohol consumers. They would drink tolerable amounts and we would no longer have to escort them home. Eventually, they would become the group that jokes from afar, as the “dumb Americans” begin to prepare for prayer to the porcelain god.</p>
<p>My point being is that if you decrease the consumption age, more people would be likely to drink, but they would probably do so in a more sensible fashion. Also, if you increased the driving age (maybe to 18) there would be less auto accidents associated with drunk driving. Though there are quite a few car accidents in Italy few are related to alcohol consumption (mostly they occur because Italians are innately bad drivers, which they will never consciously admit). Italians have been able to experience, firsthand, the debilitating effects of alcohol before learning to drive and subsequently have formed a higher inhibition to drink and drive than Americans.</p>
<p>“We have side-by-side studies from the early 80s (where one state would have an 18-year-age, and one 21) that indicate the laws work. And we have lots of data showing that some colleges can, and do reduce their binge drinking/heavy drinking rates when they choose to do so”</p>
<p>I would like to see this data. Also, you cannot make sweeping generalizations because there are too many factors to consider (Personally, I believe we are more aware today of the detrimental affects of drunk driving because we are bombarded with propaganda from the media, school, and our parents).</p>
<p>Interesteddad - thanks for the link.</p>
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<p>I agree with you on this. </p>
<p>Drinking to be drunk so as to lower social inhibitions and be able to do things one is too sensible to do otherwise – how can I raise my children to avoid this attitude?</p>
<p>Wouldn’t it be nice to change the cultural norm so that people preferred to have sex while sober?</p>
<p>It’s quite disheartening.</p>
<p>1sokkermom – the link is based on surveys, the most recent of which was 1999. Another survey was scheduled to be administered in 2001.</p>
<p>Well, the link provides some information that makes common sense. Those who drink heavily in high school also do so in college. Some students, observing their drunken classmates, prefer to abstain. Being involved in non-drinking extracurricular activities reduces binging. Schools with high drinking rates also have higher rates of vandalism, assault, rape and other unpleasant things.</p>
<p>The survey also suggests that Friday classes discourage extended weekend of drinking.</p>
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I don’t buy this either, and neither do my kids.</p>
<p>At the risk of getting seriously lambasted <em>again</em>, I will say that not only do I not blame the high schools for binge drinking, but I do not blame the colleges either. In fact, the only people that I hold responsible for binge drinking are the person doing it, and to a lesser degree, that person’s parents if there were no positive messages given throughout the kid’s life. </p>
<p>My children don’t know that you <em>CAN</em> blame society/a college/a frat/your friends/peer pressure and the like for your poor decisions. They have never been allowed that luxury, and they are quite well aware that we will look no farther for blame than to they themselves. Therefore, they have, so far, lived up to the basic standards that I’ve set for them. I do not nitpick or set unrealistic goals, but rather emphasize the big (and in my mind important) stuff. For example, none of my kids has ever had a curfew as I trust them completely, and I would not be one to freak out about protected sex or things such as that. But binge drinking? Drinking and driving?? Nope…simply not acceptable, no time, no how, no WAY. </p>
<p>How is it that my son can go to one of the schools that is taken to task regularly on these boards for its “campus culture” and not drink irresponsibly? He is, after all, subjected to the same “college culture” and peer pressure as in everyone else there. It’s really not so hard to understand. He has been told, in no uncertain terms, that he has been given an opportunity that NONE of us could have foreseen his being given, and we’ve told him, “Don’t blow it…just DON’T blow it. In fact, make the MOST of it…” and that is exactly what he has done. </p>
<p>In short, I simply do not accept some things that other parents do: Like that college kids HAVE to behave irresponsibly because it is the nature of the older adolescent beast…or that drinking, particularly irresponsible and excessive use of alcohol, is just “going to happen” because my child is exposed to a certain “campus culture.” I never behaved that way as a college student—in fact, I was an extremely responsible drinker, even at age 18 (as it was legal where I lived), and I do not for one second believe that my kids will do these things simply because other college students do. IF they do them, it will be because THEY have chosen to do them, not because they fell prey to other influences. I would never give them that “out,” and they damn well know it. I have tried to encourage in my kids, from the youngest of ages, a sense of inner control combined with a sense of responsibility (and yes, this does require some “brainwashing” and inflicted guilt <em>lol</em>), and thus far, the results have been very good.</p>
<p>There is a subtle “enabling” that I’ve seen expressed on these boards repeatedly. Even the subtle ideas that all college kids will drink/have sex/take drugs/etc. ALL college kids will not behave in <em>any</em> ONE way because just like all of us adults, each one is different, both in nature and nurture. </p>
<p>I expect a great deal from my kids, not in areas that are beyond their control (I very much respect their individual academic/athletic/personality differences), but in the areas over which they CAN exert control–standards of personal conduct, both within our home and everywhere else, and so far, they have not disappointed me.</p>
<p>And NO, my head is NOT in the sand <em>lol</em> and YES, I know that ANY kid can screw up, even mine! ;)</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Berurah:</p>
<p>I really only blame the colleges for two things:</p>
<p>a) recruiting drunks in the admissions policy</p>
<p>b) allowing sanctioned sponsored binge drinking organizations (fraternities) on campus</p>
<p>Other than those two official mechanisms for increasing binge drinking on campus, I don’t really blame colleges. Once you have a binge drinking culture, it is very difficult to change it.</p>
<p>Including binge drinking rates in the USNEWS rankings would change some cultures pretty quickly though. I rather suspect you’d see much more proactive college administrators.</p>
<p>^ What are these so called “binge drinking rates” based on, and how are they established? Student surveys are not reliable. Heresay, is not reliable. Outdated statististics based on student surveys are not reliable.
Campus “culture” is a term fabricated by those who may not like a particular campus. All campuses are made of individuals, not biased misinformed stereotypes.</p>
<p>berurah, I am not trying to excuse behavior, I am trying to understand it.</p>
<p>Certainly I hope I have raised my daughters so that they will behave responsibly, but I’m certain that there are many well raised children who fall prey to peer pressure and do things they know they shouldn’t be doing.</p>
<p>Also, some institutions encourage irresponsible behavior. For example, should credit card companies be offering credit to students with no or minimal income? Should area bars be providing free or low cost drinks to minors (cited in interesteddad’s link)?</p>
<p>Yes, college students should be held responsible for their behavior, but institutions should also be helping students become responsible adults.</p>
<p>
My son applied to 11 schools two years ago, and I can honestly say that I did not see, on ANY of the applications, a place to mark whether or not you drank, binge drank, took drugs, etc., so I’d have to disagree with you on a). In fact, even mini’s OP says that there is a great deal less binge drinking in h.s. than in college, so it appears to be a phenomenon that is MUCH more prevalent on college campuses. It seems intuitive to me to figure that the relative freedom afforded by college (as opposed to high school when kids are still living in their parents’ homes) enables students to make poor choices, esp. students who do not have a good sense of inner control.</p>
<p>As far as b), well, I am not a fan of the Greek system. None of my kids is interested in a frat or a sorority as they are very independent and do not wish to limit the majority of their socializing to one environment. I am very fortunate in that my kids are very comfortable forging their own way and do not find much compelling for them within the Greek system. I will agree with you that the fraternity environment in some ways “encourages” alcohol abuse (without overly generalizing to an entire system), but IMHO, the decision still falls to the individual. Perhaps those who seek the “approval” of others by being invested in joining a frat or sorority are more vulnerable to the allures of “belonging,” even if there are negative aspects to such joining.</p>
<p>In general, though, I do not blame the colleges for binge drinking any more than I blame a jewelry store for theft because appealing items are displayed. The obligation to behave in an upstanding manner lies with the individual who is given the choice as to conduct.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
fendrock, I understand EXACTLY what you are saying, and I don’t disagree with it at ALL. However, I am simply not willing to take the chance with my children. I CANNOT count on the schools to “help my students become responsible adults.” They are not in a position to do so any more than I as a parent am. I am raising six children. The colleges are responsible for THOUSANDS of kids. I have a better chance…a MUCH better chance…of successfully promoting decent personal conduct in my kids than does a college.</p>
<p>As far as this:
Should these things be happening? Absolutely NOT. I agree with you totally. However, they DO happen, and because they do, I HAVE to count on my kids to do the right thing. As I tell them, THEY are the only “controllable” factor. And when they subscribe to that notion, a great deal of the vulnerability is removed–and the excuses.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>berurah, even if the kid is totally under control, the issue of fit comes into play.</p>
<p>What is the prevailing norm on campus?</p>
<p>I guess I would still prefer to have my kid on a campus where students have a large range of socially-acceptable options as to how they spend their time, and where the administration competently addresses illegal and dangerous behaviors.</p>
<p>
I don’t disagree with this sentiment at all.</p>
<p>“What is the prevailing norm on campus?”</p>
<p>How does one know this? I have seen people judge a campus after a one hour visit. The visit was prejudiced by “preconceived” heresay about a campus.</p>
<p>I have also seen people who judge an entire campus on one student’s opinion.</p>
<p>I think I am leaning toward believing that a campus IS what you want it to be! As in life, decisions are made based on your surroundings. Is there ever such thing as Utopia? I doubt it. </p>
<p>Would you always want to be surrounded by people exactly like yourself? I doubt it.</p>
<p>Although it is impossible to know for sure what the prevailing norm is, previous posters have suggested some clues, such as checking out the college newspaper, reviewing surveys about college drinking rates, learning whether the school has a reputation for a “work hard/play hard” culture, noting campus appearance after a long weekend and determining whether classes are offered on Friday.</p>
<p>Statistically speaking, drinking is more prevalent on campuses with a large Greek scene and where athletics are popular.</p>
<p>Sure, a campus can be what you want it to be, but it may be more of an effort if you are attempting to fit a round campus into a square hole.</p>
<p>^ I agree for the most part. However, flexibility and tolerance are very valuable life tools! :)</p>
<p>^^As are inner control, self-discipline, and the ability to withstand peer pressure to do things which carry dangerous or negative consequences.</p>