College Decisions: UMD [$48k] vs UW [$60k] vs CWRU [$60k] for pre-med vs Drexel (BSMD) [$59k before MD school] [also UCR, UCM, SJSU, Pitzer, SCU]

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Not away rotations. Mandatory clinical rotation required for all students in MS3 and MS4.

Away rotations are done at hospitals other than the one associated with one’s medical school. They are applied for by the students at the end of MS3 through a unified, national application service. Getting aways (also called visiting rotations or audition rotations since, in effect, a visiting student is auditioning with the residency to match there) at highly desirable programs or for highly competitive specialties (like dermatology) is very competitive.

If your child wants to apply to derm, it’s critical she has at least one letter of recommendation from a dermatology attending physician she has done a sub-I (advanced clinical rotation where the student operates at the level of new medical resident in the specialty) with.

Medicine is smaller profession than people realize. For competitive specialties, a strong LOR will go a long way toward making a student competitive for Match in that specialty.

Since Drexel doesn’t offer derm residencies at any of its affiliated hospitals, she will need to apply to other hospitals (not affiliated with Drexel) that DO host a dermatology residency through VSAS (Visiting Student Application Service).

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RE: the whole BS/MD discussion.

I always tell pre-meds that unless they are willing to become primary care physicians (family medicine, general internal medicine, geriatrics or pediatrics), they should not plan on attending medical school.

Students are never guaranteed any particular specialty. The average med student changes their mind about their specialty at least 3 times during med school. Exposure to other fields, USMLE scores, didactic and clinical grades, natural aptitude for surgical procedures, risk tolerance, affinity for certain patient populations, etc-- these all influence the choice of specialty. It’s a very individual process. Nearly all students who go in thinking “specialty A” don’t end up in “specialty A”, but something else.

Highly competitive specialties (dermatology, orthopedics, neurosurgery, thoracic surgery, ENT, vascular surgery, urology, ophthalmology) are just that. Highly competitive and not every applicants will get matched to the specialty.

Med students applying to highly competitive specialties are strongly advised to apply to a back-up specialty at the same time. (Which is tricky and complicated) The risk of going un-Matched (i.e. not matching in their specialty anywhere) is very real. The student will have a MD, but without the additional training of residency, they can’t practice medicine. They’re left with a fairly unusable degree and whole, whole lot of debt.

Physicians are required to complete 1-2 years of a residency (any residency) in order to obtain a medical license in every US state. Theoretically with a license they can practice general medicine. Practically, however, there are structural roadblocks to this happening. Without board certification (which is obtained by completing a full residency and passing the national written and oral board exams in that specialty), a physician won’t be able to get malpractice insurance and insurance companies won’t reimburse that physician for patient treatment.

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What undergrad for pre-med?

That is an individual family decision.

The Tale of Two Daughters

One of my daughters attended our state flagship U. My other daughter attended a top 30-ish private university known for its pre-med program. They both were TAs/SIs for UL science/math classes. They were both paid tutors at their universities, They both worked in a research lab (Both were volunteers and paid assistants their labs) and had productive experiences there. Both ended up with research posters/presentations at the regional level or higher. Both won awards in their majors. Both made close relationships with professors who mentored them and wrote strong LORs to support their med and grad school applications. Both did off campus volunteering with both clinical and non-clinical organizations. They both had opportunities to explore other fields besides medicine. Both had leadership opportunities in their activities.

The one at the state U eschewed the pre-med advising office, used other resources for her application cycle. The one a the private U got a lot of not terribly useful advice from her pre-med advising office and used other resources for her application cycle.

Both had multiple acceptances to medical school.

MORAL: It’s the student not the school that makes for a successful pre-med.

My recommendation is this-- choose the school that offers the best combination of:

Fit because students who are happier do better academically. Also college is 4 years of their life they will never get back. There’s no reason to be miserable. I also suggest that the student should be in the upper 25% stats-wise of entering students because they will be competing those other top students for As in their pre-req classes.

Opportunity The opportunity to explore fields and jobs outside of medicine–and if it leads them away from medicine, they were never meant to be doctors in the first place. The opportunity to form relationships with their professors because those will be the people who write the LORS for internship, grad school or professional school. The opportunity to find meaningful activities on campus or nearby–not just to support a med school application, but to enrich their minds and their lives. The opportunity to meet and interact with a broad variety of people different from themselves --racially, religiously, politically, culturally, ethnically, economically etc – because college is a time to grow as person and because as a future physician they will be dealing with people for very different backgrounds than their own.

Cost because med school is already $100K/year at many places (including Drexel) and the cost is going up every year. Pre-med are advised to minimize undergrad debt as much as possible because med school is paid for by loans, loans and more loans. (Unless the Bank of Mom and Dad can finance it.)

Medicine pays well, but even a physician will have trouble paying off $500+K in loans. (Med school loans are all unsubsidized so interest starts accruing from the day the loans are disbursed. Young physicians in training don’t earn much money during residency–I think $45k/year is the average-- while working 80 hours/week. Many residents simply cannot afford to start paying off their loans during residency so the interest keeps building and capitalizing.)
Additionally, the salaries of dermatologists (and in fact for all physicians) are not keeping up with inflation and the salaries are actually going down for some specialties.

Both my daughters took a low cost option for undergrad–not necessarily the lowest price college. but one that didn’t require them or me to take out any loans to pay for it.

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For reference MCAT 513 is not a joke.
GPA 3.6 is pretty much a standard.
Premed classes are very challenging even for the very top students.
I would not go with Drexel. Too expensive, too many requirements…
Do you have cheap options?
Your daughter is wrong trying to go to top schools. Your goals should be:

  1. Highest GPA = being top student =impossible at top ranked schools full of premed.
  2. Lowest cost to attend undegrad. Ideally under $30k. No LOANS!
  3. Mental health and happiness. It is very long way to the end goal.
  4. Getting to ANY medical school. Cheaper is better again. Be the top of the class. Highest exam scores.
  5. Get to the best residency possible in your specialty. Even matching is not simple…
    Do you have cheaper options? All your options are very expensive…
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UMD is a huge state flagship. People do get to medical school from it but 25% of students in the whole college claim to be premed…
Weed-out classes are not a joke, and classes are huge. Also if you are not familiar with DC are - we have a LOT of top students from Asian community. So can your daughter compete with them?
My DD was accepted to UMD with Presidential scholarship, but we specifically eliminated UMD because all of the above.
She is in Rhodes College in TN, and has 20 students per class instead of 200-400. She is also equal to many other top students there. She would be only in the middle of the pack in UMD.

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I also would hesitate to do the Drexel BSMD program due to the logistic issues.

Out of the initial 4 choices OP posted, I would lean CWRU, followed by UMD. UW is hyper competitive in the sciences…has she spoken with any students there?

While I understand the need to watch costs, one potential downside of saving money to attend a UC or CSU is that California is one of the most competitive states for med school admission (volume, achievement, most of the CA med schools don’t preference in-state students so lots of OOS student competition in addition to fierce in-state competition).

With that said UCR does have an early assurance program, has your D considered that? Thomas Haider Early Assurance Program | School of Medicine Student Affairs

@wayoutwestmom What are your thoughts re: pros/cons of a California student saving the $ to attend a UC or CSU knowing the state of med school admissions there?

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This will be true regardless of where your child attends undergrad since merely attending undergrad in another state won’t change her state of residence for med school applications.

She will still be considered a CA resident (with the disadvantages inherent in that…) unless she graduates from college, then establishes an independent domicile in another state by living there and working at a job to support herself for 12 months.

RE: Thomas Haider

The Thomas Haider program is a wonderful opportunity, but admission to the program requires that the student be a resident of either Riverside or San Bernardino counties. The acceptance rate to program is about 10% (127 applicants last year for 12 slots) and last year’s acceptances were overwhelmingly from disadvantaged/lowSES backgrounds. (75% disadvantaged)

The UCs and CSUs are probably the most cost effective option for undergrad. Attending a CA public undergrad–or even doing the CCC to UC route–will not disadvantage a student w/r/t instate med school admission. The UCs, however, are notably more successful in getting their students into med school than the CSUs. I’m not sure why. Could be the CSU students tend to prefer other careers. It could be that the UCs are so much bigger and their sheer number of applicants overwhelm the admission data.

For med schools outside of CA (and more CA residents matriculate into OOS public and private med schools than they do into any of CA’s public or private med schools), I’m not sure people outside of CA are aware of – or care about-- of the nuances of UC vs CSU prestige debate.

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What are your thoughts on the UCR undergraduate medical program?

The overall organization seem very interesting to me and unique.

The curriculum in the first two years integrates the science of human biology and disease, recognizing that medicine is a multi-faceted discipline that pulls simultaneously from many aspects of basic, clinical, health systems and behavioral sciences to focus on the medical concerns of individual patients. Years 1 and 2 also introduces students to fundamental clinical skills. Instruction is driven by cases explored in small groups, laboratories, conferences, clinical skills workshops, and independent study.

There are five instructional blocks in the first year, focusing primarily on an integrated approach to human biological systems. Also in year 1, students will begin their three-year Longitudinal Ambulatory Care Experience where they participate in the care of patients under the supervision of a physician-mentor.

In year 2, there are four instructional blocks, focusing on disease processes using the same organizational model as in year 1 with five modules and curricular threads in each block course, followed by a one-week integrative assessment module.

Third year students have an educational experience in the core areas of medicine, surgery, family medicine, pediatrics, obstetrics-gynecology, psychiatry, neurology and emergency medicine at medical centers and hospitals in Inland Southern California.

In the fourth year, students complete two core selectives in critical care medicine and a sub-internship, five one-month elective experiences, a radiology course, and transition to residency course.

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@tsbna44

You are misunderstanding what is meant by “undergraduate medical education”.

Undergraduate medical education refers to the curriculum a medical school follows. It has zero to do with UCR’s undergraduate education.

“Graduate medical education” (GME) refers to both the training newly graduated physicians get in residency AND the continuing medical education courses doctors take to maintain their medical licenses and board certification.

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Thank you for all this awesome and detailed info for CA med school hopefuls (and for all the other info you post on this site) :heart:

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Sorry this is their program - am I missing something?

The UCR School of Medicine’s unique Undergraduate Medical Education (UME) curriculum prepares our students for distinguished careers in clinical practice, teaching, and research.

Not sure if this student even applied to UCR so may not be relevant.

School of Medicine Undergraduate Medical Education | (ucr.edu)

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Nothing special about UCR med school curriculum. It looks pretty standard to me.

Edited to add: UCR SOM has a relatively small class size. Currently it accept 50 students/year (though once they complete a facilities expansion, their class size will be 125) .

UCR is a strongly mission-focused medical school and its mission to provide primary care doctors for the Inland Empire area of CA, Thus, admissions at UCR SOM favors residents of the Inland Empire are of CA–Riverside, and San Bernardino countries-- to point where students who live outside of that area really aren’t considered.

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NVM…wayoutwestmom answered about 5 posts ago

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For my own benefit and knowledge, where is this requirement stated? Looking at webpage for the Thomas Haider Early assurance program it only states the following:

Program Restrictions

  • Applicants must be an undergraduate student at UCR OR a recent graduate who has never previously applied to medical school.
  • Early Assurance Program applicants are not permitted to apply to other schools.
  • Program is open to in-state residents only.
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@tsbna44 you are posting info about Riverside medical school. Not about their undergraduate bachelors program. Are you aware of that?

This is their MEDICAL school curriculum…not their undergraduate bachelors degree curriculum.

@WayOutWestMom noted that above.

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This student was accepted at Riverside for undergrad. It’s in the subject title.

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That’s the official statement, but unofficially only students from the IE or who have close ties to that area are considerer for admission.

Students from outside the IE must have demonstrated interest in serving as a physician in the IE post residency.

Basically an adcomm at another UC med school said that if you’re not from IE, don’t bother.

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Thank you for the information.

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And my DD was accepted into ILS and does not regret not attending. Different people use different approaches.
Small classes for Org Chem are priceless :slight_smile:

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Yeah. That’s my concern too. I preferred UMD since we have a couple of extended family members who live close by in MD, VA and can provide support in case she needs extra help. Anyway…we’ll decide after our visit. Thanks :pray:

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