College Faculty and Receptivity to Outside Evaluation?

Parents Forum
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<p>It comes down to the question of what is the “idea” of a university. Many variables come into play and many interests/needs must be met. I think Donald Levine’s recent book on the subject is quite interesting (Powers of the Mind: The Reinvention of Liberal Learning in America). Further, I doubt the struggles he describes could be adequately addressed by a survey, or by occupational numbers. Having said that, the issues of what the university is and what it should become and how one evaluates that are all good ones, and need to be asked. But can the same criteria of efficiency, productivity, & product outcome be applied to universities as they are applied to business or government? Some would argue that for universities to meet their societal obligations they must resist such attempts or risk losing what it means to be a university in the first place.</p>

<p>Here is a an excerpt from speech by Levine ( and a link to the entire speech) that helps frame the question that is much more thoroughly examined in his book: </p>

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<p><a href=“http://iotu.uchicago.edu/levine.html[/url]”>http://iotu.uchicago.edu/levine.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>The surveys may work when kids are specifically trained in the university and go directly to the job market. When we attended Carnegie Mellon’s School of Computer Science info session, they had all the numbers had their fingertips. Who went to grad school and which ones. Who got jobs, where and what the starting salaries were. They even had a graph of job salaries compared to GPAs! </p>

<p>That works pretty well in a field like computer science, but imagine trying to judge a school’s English department the same way! Is it a bad school because the graduates are making measly salaries as journalists, librarians and school teachers? Is it a good one of lots are going into professional schools like law and business? Is it a better one if they are going on to pursue PhDs? And what if twenty years out they have discovered a new passion, real estate development in my sister-in-laws case, is that good or bad? Her English skills still serve her.</p>

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<p>dstark,
Your statement, </p>

<p>“Go ask heads of businesses, employees and suppliers what the USNWR rankings are. Ask them about PA. They don’t know.” </p>

<p>is more telling than perhaps you intended. That has long been my point. Businesses (and students) could care less about PA (and nearly all don’t even know what it is), so why is this such a critical number in a college ranking system? </p>

<p>As far as a score from businesses and a score from academics and which to choose, I’d leave that up to the individual. I suspect that for someone interested in an academic career, the current PA has some value, but for someone interested in a career in the for-profit world, the opinions of businesses would have great value.</p>

<p>You say that businesses don’t really understand education. I could not disagree more strongly. What is it that you think that businesses don’t understand? Are you really saying that only those in academia can understand education? </p>

<p>Finally, re your son and his class, that sounds similar to how I’ve seen others approach the process. I’ve yet to meet a student or family who made a college attendance decision based on USNWR rankings. </p>

<p>idad,
Things change, societies evolve, and institutions must adapt to meet those developments. IMO, colleges are no different nor should they be immune to these pressures. If they want to remain the disconnected ivory towers of yesteryear, then go ahead, build the brand and try to convince people that that collegiate model is best. But ultimately you need the acquiescence of students, families, alumni, employers, etc. to perpetuate that. </p>

<p>With the amount of money now being spent by students and families for college and the responsiveness and student sensitivity (or lack thereof) of the research-driven university, I think it is only natural that collegiate institutions are under pressure from the ten developments that Shils pointed out in 1992 and that pressure continues to this day. The market and the various stakeholders are speaking. I don’t see that as a bad thing, but rather an overdue shout-out to the academic world to connect their efforts to the real world.</p>

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<p>mathmom,
I’m not getting caught up in whether a computer science grad will make more money than an English major. That is not my choice to make-it is the student’s. But wouldn’t the student benefit from knowing more about the possible consequences of his/her choices? Some students don’t care about the money and it would not be relevant, but many do and it would be highly relevant.</p>

<p>Some students want a new experience and will try a new field for their major because it interests them, Then, when the job interview arrives, they can weave a story for why this was the right choice for them, how it built important skills for use throughout their life and why the employer should hire them or the graduate school should accept them. </p>

<p>Anyway, the current PA supposedly makes the same comparison on a college when it lumps the computer science faculty in with the English department faculty. The reality, however, is that the school’s PA is probably much more impacted by any research success in the computer science field than in whether a teacher in the English department is doing a good job of teaching critical thinking and writing skills in the classroom. My desire is that this classroom effort get somehow recognized and rewarded in the rankings process.</p>

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<p>?? You ask about faculty and faculty evaluation, and what they think, but then mention US News rankings. Faculty play no part in those rankings; and they do not have “sole judgment” in the rankings. Neither, I would argue, do the provosts et al who answer the PA survey. The weightings and other variables used are all choices, and thererfore all represent judgments made by Robert Morse & crew.</p>

<p>As for your original question, I am interested in what employers think of an institution’s quality (given what they observe in the grads they interview and hire) but wouldn’t expect them to tell me anything specific about the faculty.</p>

<p>I think Cal Poly’s employer survey is a pretty common thing. Some institutions survey not just the employers who hire their grads, but even then ones who come to interview and DON’T hire grads.</p>

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<p>Right now, the rankings are bogus. If you change how you rank schools and use business input (which can not be measured accurately) the rankings will still be bogus. </p>

<p>My argument is bogus or bogus. Who cares? If people aren’t basing their decisions on them, who cares?</p>

<p>Why do you care so much? If a school drops from 20 to 30 in the rankings, what does that really mean? If a school goes from 50 to 38, what does that really mean?</p>

<p>Why is the college ranking system so important to you if students are not using them to make final decisions?</p>

<p>Would you personally look more favorably on a school if its rankings were 20 instead of 28?</p>

<p>The decision to include businesses input is USNWR, not the academic community. USNWR is not the academic community’s rankings. It’s a magazine’s ranking.</p>

<p>“I think Cal Poly’s employer survey is a pretty common thing. Some institutions survey not just the employers who hire their grads, but even then ones who come to interview and DON’T hire grads.”</p>

<p>Hoedown, are these surveys published on the school’s web sites so the public can have easy access to the information? I don’t see too many schools do that and the information would be helpful.</p>

<p>Instead of a magazine made up of rankings, I would like to see a magazine (or a book) filled up with information like Cal Poly’s from many different schools. That would be helpful.</p>

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<p>I think most people know that being an English major is financially more risky than being a comp sci major. But even English majors become investment bankers and best selling novelists. </p>

<p>I agree with you that peer assessment is a weak spot in the USNWR rankings. But I just can’t figure out any assessment system that would make me happier. Particular since the assessments that would make the most sense vary so much from department to department. Even at Carnegie Mellon those numbers don’t really tell me how good a job they are doing. Comp Sci geeks are notorious for teaching themselves. If you can accept the top kids in the country to begin with, they will probably come out the top kids at the other end.</p>

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<p>hoedown,
As currently constituted, the only subjective measurement of the USNWR ranking is the Peer Assessment. The only ones that have an opportunity to influence this are academics (unless USNWR sets the weighting at 0%). </p>

<p>As for employers’ view of a college and a faculty, you could very easily say the same about the ability of Presidents/Provosts/Deans of Admissions and their proximity and knowledge of the faculty at many, many other schools around the country. For example, I suspect that the major employer in Sacramento can tell you more about the quality of the faculty at UC Davis than could the President/Provost/DoA of the University of Tennessee. </p>

<p>dstark,
While students are not basing their decisions on the rankings, the rankings clearly influence the process. That is why there is such a big fight going on about rankings generally, and USNWR specifically. </p>

<p>Right now, the only vote that counts is that of the academics. If such rankings must include subjective components, I think that other groups can also make a valuable contribution. That may or may not have any impact on a school’s ranking. That isn’t the point. The point is that that information may or may not be useful to any individual user and would give them a more well-rounded view of a college and its faculty. The idea is to serve and inform the student who is looking at the college. </p>

<p>I’m not sure why you object to students, alumni, and employers having a formal role in the evaluation process, similar to what the academics now enjoy.</p>

<p>Mathmom,
One solution: Peer Assessment-free rankings.</p>

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<p>They’re not being asked to evaluate the faculty.</p>

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<p>" Mathmom,
One solution: Peer Assessment-free rankings."</p>

<p>I’d have no particular objection to that. :)</p>

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<p>From the professors I’ve known, the reaction would unequivocal and negative.</p>

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<p>hawkette, why do you care what academics would think about employers participating in the ranking of colleges? It wouldn’t require the support of academics to set up a survey of employers to get their input. And frankly, as long as employers were only ranking schools as a whole (and not individual fields or faculty members) I doubt very many academics (apart from a few top administrators) would care at all. Both my parents are professors, and from what I can tell, they couldn’t care less where US News ranks the universities they teach at. The only rankings they care about at all are the rankings of their fields by the NRC.</p>

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<p>Hawkette, first off, students and alumni already have a say in the rankings. Just not in the PA portion. </p>

<p>No PA. Take it out. Now the rankings will be changed. Some schools will go up. Some will go down. </p>

<p>Then what? Am I supposed to consider the 20th highest ranked school over the 30th?</p>

<p>I’m going to make a wild guess and say that major companies in Sacramento really like UC Davis students. I’m going to take another guess and say that employers in Tennessee are not going to have a clue about UC Davis students. So why would I care what Tennessee employers say if I am considering UC Davis?</p>

<p>Your argument against PA is fine. Your argument to change it to something else makes no sense in the following context. You seem to think the rankings will have more validity without PA. They are not valid now and they won’t be without PA or a different version of PA.</p>

<p><a href=“Rank this, U.S. News”>Rank this, U.S. News;

<p>Hawkette, read from this link. What I would like to see is schools publish information like Cal Poly does, information mentioned in this link. That is helpful. That is useful. The rankings are *****.</p>

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<p>Rank this, U.S. News
Why Trinity College’s president opted out of the magazine’s education rankings.
By Patricia McGuire, PATRICIA MCGUIRE is president of Trinity (Washington, D.C.) University.
May 14, 2007</p>

<p>RIP IT UP and throw it away. That’s the advice I’m giving my fellow college and university presidents this month as the “reputation survey” from U.S. News & World Report lands on our desks. I am one of 12 presidents who wrote a letter urging colleagues to take a stand for greater integrity in college rankings — starting by boycotting the magazine’s equivalent of the “American Idol” voting process.</p>

<p>All presidents receive versions of the reputation survey organized by region. Mine lists 181 Northern universities, including schools as different as the behemoth City University of New York’s Hunter College, with more than 20,000 students, and my Trinity, a historically Catholic women’s college that’s now a 1,600-student university.</p>

<p>The survey asks me to “rate the academic quality of undergraduate programs,” assigning each school a single score using a 1-to-5 scale from “marginal” to “distinguished.” That I have little real information about these 181 institutions does not seem to matter to the U.S. News editors. The tabulated survey results will account for 25% of the total score they use to rank colleges and universities in the “Best Colleges” issue.</p>

<p>In a cover letter reminiscent of a sweepstakes mailing, U.S. News informs me that I am “one of a select group of people” with “the broad experience and expertise needed to assess the academic quality of your peer institutions.” Most of what I know about these schools is through anecdotes, news stories and rumors. Should I score an institution poorly because I’ve heard that it has money woes? Should faculty unrest influence my vote?</p>

<p>This reputation survey is just part of the larger problem with “Best Colleges,” a misnomer that feeds into the American obsession with celebrity, prestige and list making. What’s “best” educationally for an aspiring physicist is quite different from what’s “best” for a future reading teacher. But in the strange alchemy of U.S. News, the rich diversity of American higher education boils down to a few points about fame and wealth.</p>

<p>In addition to the reputation survey, U.S. News collects lots of institutional data that it churns through its own formulas to score each school; those scores drive the rankings. Colleges that have high faculty salaries and strong “selectivity” — meaning that they reject a lot of applicants — fare much better than those that are more efficient with resources or that accept more students.</p>

<p>Universities that want to move up in the rankings dare not admit more low-income students from urban public schools who might lower the retention and completion rates.</p>

<p>U.S. News also provides an incentive for colleges to raise tuition because that means higher “educational expenditures per student” and more “faculty resources,” which together account for 30% of the score. The very consumers whom U.S. News allegedly serves are paying a hefty price for what its rankings have done to higher education.</p>

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<p>COLLEGE PRESIDENTS need to show some backbone and stop colluding in this unseemly beauty contest.</p>

<p>Privately, some presidential colleagues have said they agree with my position but are afraid to act publicly for fear of upsetting trustees or alumni. But one of the essential tasks of leadership is to risk speaking the hard truth.</p>

<p>U.S. News and others in the college-ranking business claim that they promote accountability in higher education. But what truly betrays public trust is permitting surrogate measures of academic quality to replace real information about what students learn on our campuses. Colleges need to take back the responsibility for communicating educational results, starting with posting accreditation reports on websites.</p>

<p>We also need to teach prospective students and families to assess what really counts in higher education — not a magazine ranking but how well a college meets a student’s learning style and academic interests, how available the faculty are outside the classroom, whether students can get the courses they need to graduate in a timely way and what professional schools and employers welcome its graduates. The best way to assess a school’s quality is to visit the campus, stay overnight in residence halls with other students, meet the faculty, sit in on classes and try on the “feel” of the place.</p>

<p>Some of the actual best colleges in this nation do not fare well in the U.S. News survey because they do not have the wealth, big-time sports notoriety or public relations clout to influence the peer voting system.</p>

<p>Every March and April, in anticipation of the reputation survey, some university PR machines go into overdrive and crowd my desk with glossy brochures touting their accomplishments. A few presidents go so far as to appeal for my vote directly, sending personalized form letters extolling the virtues of their colleges. I rip those up and throw them away, where they commingle in the trash can with the U.S. News survey.</p>

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<p>The “Idea of the University” needs to be defined prior to any evaluation. There is little or no evidence that college leads to occupational success, or provides those “critical thinking skills” often mentined. As Andrew Abbott, an Occupational Sociologist points out, “the evidence that college learning per se produced these skills is flimsy.” Abbott goes on to demolition with evidence, or the lack thereof, most of the cherished beliefs one holds about colleges, especially elite ones. Accordingly, without rather expensive and impossible controlled studies, true evaluation of the type proposed by government is impossible. His conclusion is that the only Aim of Education, is education itself. I recommend Abbot’s speech. Here is an abridge version with a link to the full version. <a href=“http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml[/url]”>http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>dstark,
Not sure where the opinions of students or alumni have a role in the current USNWR survey. Alumni give money, but I would argue strongly that this is not accurate for public schools and the support they enjoy from their graduates. Many feel they already give through taxes and some just don’t have the $ to make a gift. As for students, not sure what you are referring to.</p>

<p>As for how you use the rankings, I would guess that one would use as they do now, ie, as a starting point to identify schools that would fall out as Reach/Match/Safety, but without the obfuscation of the PA. </p>

<p>For the UC Davis/Tennessee point, you probably wouldn’t care just as you probably shouldn’t care what the academics at U Tennessee think about UC Davis. That was my point.</p>

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<p>One could argue their role, limited as it is, is greater than that of of the faculty you’re discussing in this thread.</p>

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<p>Where are the opinions of students included in USNWR?</p>

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<p>hawkette:</p>

<p>I’ll admit, I one of the few on this board who doesn’t have a problem with PA. (It is what it is.) </p>

<p>But, asking employers to rate colleges is just as fraught with problems. For example, it would more heavily weight colleges with undergrad engineering and business programs, i.e., disciplines that send kids directly to the work force. Moreover, it would just change any gamesmanship within the colleges. Recently, Haas B school at Cal jumped in the B-school rankings solely bcos they purposely placed more focus on corporate recruiters, wining and dining them. It worked as they jumped back into the top 10! :rolleyes:</p>