College is NOT High School

Big_Brother_1984 · August 23, 2007, 8:22pm

Herein lies the distinction I’ve made. Students probably work “too hard” to care about what others wear - but what about themselves? You’ve pointed out that an upper class attitude does exist at Harvard. umcp11 has basically described Northwestern as preppy - and that’s a reasonable characterization if you’ve visited some of the schools I saw in the South. Actually, I doubt that “working too hard” has to do with anything, so long as the cultural attitudes exist and they actually influence you. When I was in elementary school, people around me weren’t the least bit conscious of what others wore. Not even the slightest. Why is that? I mean surely, UGA students also work hard, right? UGA is a state flagship after all. If you’re not sure about that, then what about Georgia Tech students? I think it’s safe to say, that Tech students work very hard. But why are they so less conscious about style?

Less you think I’m being ludicrous. Go check out a school here in the South. Ivy students tend to dress better so obviously, something is affecting that general culture.

The fairest statement was that it depends where you go to school. And of course, it really depends.

Also, I wasn’t blaming you for complaining about the difficulties of college. But surely, if kids have time to indulge in their surroundings, surely they have time to care about what others are wearing? Or at the very least, care what they’re wearing themselves. You said so yourself hotpiece101.

Your view of how difficult Harvard is might be overblown, since after all, what other school have you had the opportunity to experience? The difficulty is irrelevant though. The way I see it is, if you’re pointing out about how hard an Ivy League school is and you’re not an engineering/premed/other time-consuming major student, then you need to toughen up, gain some new perspective or study at Caltech for a semester. You didn’t get admitted into an Ivy to be a d-bag about everything.

hotpiece101 · August 23, 2007, 8:48pm

They may care about what they are wearing, but honestly, who has time (in between classes, clubs, friends, etc.) to care about what everyone else is wearing. And that was my point. I’m not saying that kids don’t work hard at public schools, I have no idea because I don’t go to a public school. I only spoke about the schools I have familiarity with (elite private schools).

I never said it was harder or easier than any other school (you’re the one who made those statements). I just said it was hard in general.

I don’t go to Caltech or any other hard school, so if I think Harvard is hard, then I have every right to, regardless of my major. And who said that noting that Harvard is a hard school makes you a d-bag?

das8929 · August 23, 2007, 8:58pm

I agree… thats why I think college is awesome.

SilvaRua · August 23, 2007, 9:14pm

The funny part is that I’m a Caltech student, completely agree with the relative difficulties of the three colleges (in general course requirements; Harvard math is elite-tier)…and yet, EVEN HERE, there are a ton of people who don’t work hard.

I’m a good example of this. (Working on fixing this)

I’ve never really understood this; even at Caltech, taking one of the most time-demanding, insane majors (chem e.), you can get away with two hours of study for all your courses a day, and be a straight-A student no problem.

And no, the people who do this aren’t geniuses by any measure; just solid, smart people who put in a constant, but not HARD amount of work.

Almost all of the students posting in this topic are intellectually capable of doing the same thing.

And oh yeah, there are people who put in eight plus hours of study a day.

Those people are superstars.

So don’t complain about hard workloads, hotpiece. I think our maids and landscapers work about a hundred times harder than ninety percent of the students, and still manage to be upbeat and cheerful.

umcp11-

I’m usually the last person to say this, but your ridiculously prejudiced, judgemental approach to life makes you particularly inadequate for both college and the real world.

Or rather, judging people based on how expensive their clothes and what car they drive is shallow, silly, and the sooner you abandon it, the better.

And once again, you know nothing of Northwestern.

Hopefully, people won’t get a subconsciously bad impression of the place from your rambling posts.

It’s actually a great place, with a diverse, interesting student population.

hotpiece101 · August 23, 2007, 9:23pm

Oh, wow, SilvaRua. I NEVER complained about the workload. I said that people are working too hard to really care about what everyone else is wearing! And just because some people can get by with ony studying two hours a day, it doesn’t mean everyone can. I know many a person at Harvard that puts in many more hours than that. I also know people who don’t. But in general, I’d say the majority of the kids at Harvard are hard-workers (whether that is defined by putting in a constant numbers of hours of work or trying incredibly hard all the time).

And wow, that was a harsh indictment of umcp11… I mean, sure she’s said some things on this board, but somehow you now know enough about here to decide that she is “inadequate for both college and the real world.” Interesting, very interesting…

umcp11 · August 23, 2007, 9:47pm

Not to mention, I said multiple times that I had no problem with Northwestern and that the kids were probably fine and really smart (once in every post, in fact, from my first to my last…sigh). The only observations I made about the school were that people dressed preppy and that the Greek scene is big. Therefore, I felt it was not a fit for me. You, on the other hand, have gone off about all the journalism majors being rich kids who don’t have to get a job after they graduate. And I’m the one who is prejudiced and judgemental. Haha. Ok.

cghen · August 24, 2007, 2:12pm

Silva, what do you mean by studying? Do you include doing problem sets in studying? Are you including lecture (for those who go)? If you do, I know very few people (especially chem Es) who can only get away with ~14 hours of work a week without failing. For instance, when EEs take 52, some people spend 14 hours per day on their work.

hotpiece101 · August 24, 2007, 3:59pm

And this was exactly my point of how high school and college are different. And to your other points, working too hard refers to putting in time doing problem sets or writing essays or studying for midterms or doing clubs or playing sports or laughing with friends. With all this stuff going on, why the hell would anyone even care that you are wearing American Eagle instead of Lacoste?

You are the only one playing this game. I say kids at Harvard are hard workers. You said, no they’re not. The kids at Caltech and MIT probably work harder than the kids at Harvard do. I don’t know or care to know how hard kids at other schools work because I don’t go to those schools. And I’m not gonna pretend like I do, and that I’m intimately familiar with the work ethic of a school I’m not attending.

And I really don’t get what your issue is with me saying Harvard is hard and the students are hard workers. I never said anything about anyone at any other school not working hard, I never said anything about not expecting to work hard at Harvard, so I have no idea why you keep telling me the same old story about Harvard being a cakewalk compared to Caltech or MIT. I don’t go to Caltech or MIT so I don’t care how hard those classes are or how hard those kids work, so I don’t understand why you keep telling me to think about them. Why should I? I never complained about my workload, maybe if I had I should be thinking about the Caltech and MIT students, but I didn’t.

Big_Brother_1984 · August 24, 2007, 5:21pm

Uhhh, what? Playing sports? Doing clubs? Laughing with friends? If that’s what you define as “working hard,” then I think at least you can acknowledge that a lot of college students work pretty hard.

But you seem to be missing my point here. Either that, or you’re choosing to ignore it. So I’m going to try again. It really depends on where you go to college/high school. I know the people at my school didn’t care too much about who wears what. It can be said that the typical high school doesn’t exhibit the qualities that you claim it does. I’ve been to 4 high schools, and not one of them had an explicit social hierarchy, or a style-conscious student body. The media portrays the typical high school as having a social hierarchy with an extremely well-dressed student body. But really, is that “high school” as most of us know it?

And again, I find this statement extremely ludicrous. After all, how long does it take to look at someone and make judgments based on his or her attire? umcp11 can. And yet, you cannot? You’re telling me that you’re so busy in college, that you can’t even notice the people around you? Let’s get things straight here. What I’ve been arguing the whole time was that certain cultures permit the proliferation of certain attitudes. I never stated that style-consciousness and hard work had an x-y correlation.

Well see, several can play that game. As I’ve been saying, people tend to evaluate themselves relative to their peers. How much does it actually mean to say that “State U students” work hard? Indeed, they probably do work hard, but that’s the whole point about college. You’re not in high school anymore, so it’s silly that you’re saying that a certain group of people are “hard workers.” However, few people will argue that students from the Ivies work far harder than those from the “Institutes of Technology.” Your constant claims about your fellow students “working too hard” is tantamount to a baby stamping her feet in frustration, without the proper perspective of others who probably have it worse than her. Of course college is just “too hard,” so you assess yourself to the rest of your peers, and assume that everyone else around you must be a hard worker. Of course, because it’s logical to assume that your direct experience is the final point of reference (sarcasm). But really, are you working hard at all?

Look, I’m saying you should just have the proper perspective when saying who and who does not “work hard.” If there’s anybody complaining about “working too hard,” it should be those students from Caltech or MIT. Sure you might think you’re working hard but that’s ONLY because you tend to evaluate yourself relative to your peers. The general perception and indeed, consensus is that Harvard students do not work as hard as the other Ivy League students/top-tier college students. Hard workers - that’s relative.

nowayjose · August 24, 2007, 5:32pm

Regarding the eating alone, I read something very interesting about this in a psychology textbook. People who are comfortable with their social network and are confident about who they are and how they are perceived don’t mind going to the occasional movie alone, without worrying about asking someone to go with them. If you’re hungry eat, if nobody else wants to see a movie with you, go see it. I was always afraid of doing things by myself when I had few friends, I was insecure. People have such different schedules that sometimes your only option will be to do things alone.

hotpiece101 · August 24, 2007, 5:43pm

I got your point. In my first post ever addressed to you, I said that you and I have had VERY different experiences in regards to high school and college (you told me that our experiences weren’t that different). I told you that, in my experience, college and high school are nothing alike. I acknowledged that it depends on where you go to school. You are the one who went off on this tangent about how kids at Harvard don’t work hard, so it is still like high school because we all judge each other on what everyone is wearing. I told you that this is not what I’ve seen at Harvard. And I never said what the typical high school was or wasn’t. I said that my high school is generic (i.e. the same environment you see on crappy teen reality shows). You, yourself said that this is what the media portrays as the average high school. And my high school fits perfectly into this mold. Do I know what the majority of high schools are like? No. I only spoke about the high school I attended.

I never said that people don’t notice other people’s clothing. I said they don’t care about what everyone else is wearing. I may notice that this girl has on a Abercrombie and Fitch while I prefer J. Crew. Does that mean I’m not going to be her friend? No. At my high school did it mean our social circles wouldn’t have been friends? Yes. And that was my point.

I never argued that. I said that kids at Harvard work hard IN GENERAL. If I feel like I’m working hard, then I will say I’m working hard, regardless of whether or not you agree.

I never said everyone around me MUST be a hard worker. I said that in my experience and observation, the people around me are working hard. When I see my friends spending hours on an econ problem set, I consider that hard work. When I see groups of students huddled in the library at 4 AM, still studying for that test, I consider that hard work. Do you? Who knows and who cares.

Why do I have to have the proper prospective? If I have to study five hours a night so that I can get good grades at Harvard, and a Caltech student only has to study for two hours a night to get good grades, who is the harder worker? The Caltech student because they go to Caltech or the Harvard student because they put in more hours? And, quite frankly, I just don’t understand why you are so hell bent on this Harvard kids aren’t “hard workers” thing.

Big Brother, since you seem to be the expert on how hard Harvard students work (even though you don’t go there), then tell me, what is the final reference on how much of a “hard-worker” everyone is?

And just for the record, I personally work hard at Harvard. Harder than a MIT or Caltech student? Maybe.

hotpiece101 · August 24, 2007, 6:46pm

Like I said, my posts were in direct relation to high school (which you seemed to ignore). At my high school, you were friends with people who were like you. If I am carrying a Gucci bag and wearing Seven jeans, then my friends were doing the same. And I wasn’t friends with that girl who had on Levi’s and that Hollister top. At college, however, just because we don’t dress alike doesn’t mean we can’t be friends. I don’t care if you are wearing something you bought from Walmart, I’ll still talk to you and be polite and wanna hang out with you, if I think you are a nice person. Not the case in my high school. THIS WAS MY POINT!

But this discussion wasn’t about “how bad” anyone has it. It was about how hard everyone works. If that 12th grader is struggling with his basic algebra and trying hard to master it, then he is working hard. Is the work necessarily hard? Not to me. But that doesn’t mean he’s not working hard on work I consider to be easy.

I never said I had it rough. You’re the one who made those assumptions.

Or, I could just ask myself, considering that I am a math major ;)

nowayjose · August 24, 2007, 6:58pm

I always have to laugh when I read message board arguments. Everybody’s too stubborn to be convinced one way or another, it always gets into semantics, people take things apart quote by quote. Join the debate team or something

SilvaRua · August 24, 2007, 7:30pm

I include problem sets in the calculation, but not lecture. I’m basing it off of personal observation.

I even know moderately successful chem E’s who work less than that, although in some cases, they’re just relying on the skills and knowledge they obtained before coming to Caltech. (And hence, it’s hard to extrapolate that to other individuals)

Honestly, I think that if someone spends about twenty hours a week plus lecture on their work, they should be fine.

And as for double Es spending fourteen hours a day on EE52…I know the class is very difficult and time-consuming, but even counting lecture, I’ve never met anyone who has spent a productive fourteen hours studying a day.

I’ve known some uber-serious, Spartan workers here, but anything over eight hours plus lecture a day, and I’m very skeptical.

nowayjose · August 24, 2007, 7:47pm

This is what I mean, the same arguments over and over again. “Get off your high horse” ad infinitum. People who pick apart all these stories and anecdotal arguments piece by piece succeed only in diverting everyone’s attention away from the original topic and into their own personal quarrel. Yes, if good solid discussion is debating endless minutiae then I guess I am a bit ivory towered.

If my disagreement with your own opinions on message board usage makes me above it all, a rebel, then you can change my name from Jose to James Dean

lizzardfire · August 24, 2007, 7:47pm

Having taken EE52, I’d like to say you most certainly can spend a productive fourteen hours a day on it. It’s a project class, so you’re not “studying” for those fourteen hours, you’re working.

Of course, I don’t think most EEs work 14 hours a day every day on the class, but I definitely pulled a few 14 hour days, especially near the end.

All in all I’d say I worked an average of 25-30 hours a week on that course, and that doesn’t include lecture (which I did not attend for the most part).

nowayjose · August 24, 2007, 8:03pm

But I do agree with the OP if only in the sense that college is unstructured and for most people unsupervised. The conditions change, people don’t. And BigBrother succeeded in proving my point

cghen · August 24, 2007, 8:47pm

For reference, for the 14 hours a day for EEs taking 52, I was including lecture and all of the other courses they take at the same time - not just time spent on 52.

SilvaRua · August 24, 2007, 10:46pm

lizzardfire, cghen-

In terms of individual working days, I think anyone who has spent at least a full year at Tech has had days where they put in over fourteen hours of work, no question. However, it’s certainly not the average for anyone I know.

And sure, one can go back and forth on how many hours are necessary for what course, or the productivity of the spent time, or how much is lab work, and how much is learning new concepts, etc.

My basic point was that it’s very possible to do well by CONSISTENTLY putting in several solid, productive hours every single day.

unalove · August 25, 2007, 1:29am

I would be willing to concede to hotpiece’s “everybody works too hard to care about what they are wearing” point to the extent that in college, what’s valued are your intellectual and social contributions rather than the animal or lack thereof you are sporting on your shirt.

Any elite school has a blend of students-- rich, poor, urban, farm kids, black, white, hispanic, etc. etc. etc. etc.-- and the only real uniter, for an elite school, at least, is a relatively high level of intelligence. That in itself makes college quite different from high school, in which students are united by location, by shared experiences, by family and social networks, etc. Me and my Mossimo t-shirts from Target would probably be welcome at any school.

College is NOT High School

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