College response to terrorism in Israel

Parents Forum
1257

So the USC professor on leave for saying Hamas members should be killed crossed that line?

1258

"“In an updated statement, USC said, “all of the restrictions previously placed on Professor Strauss have now been lifted.””


In an exchange with the protesters, Strauss said they were ignorant, before going a step further.

“Hamas are murderers,” the 72-year-old professor said to the students. “That’s all they are. Every one should be killed, and I hope they all are killed.”

The video, versions of which were manipulated online to remove the reference to Hamas and instead suggested that he hoped all Palestinians would be killed, prompted a swift response from the university."

So apparently he didn’t actually cross the line he was accused of crossing.

1 Like
1259

I agree. I was trying to be too nice saying “fine” line. Who gets invited to speak by student groups? Usually the extremists on both sides of the debate. Rarely, are those who preach empathy brought in as speakers to “moderate” the discussion and find common ground. We also mustn’t be naive. University campuses have long been the playground for geopolitical nonsense.

3 Likes
1261

Problem is that many slogans can be interpreted in multiple ways. Most aren’t as cut and dried as something like “gas the Jews.”

To me (having lived in Israel during the 2nd intifada), the word “intifada” has extremely violent connotations, but some people even on this thread seem to think of it as a more neutral term for “uprising” that might also encompass nonviolent resistance. How do you classify calls for “global intifada”? (Edited to add: No intent to put you personally on the spot with this question
 I meant something like, “How should we classify 
 ?” etc.)

Another relatively innocuous sounding slogan, “Free Palestine,” might be interpreted as a call for a two-state solution with an autonomous state of Palestine
 but I have friends who use this slogan in their social media posts meaning that the state of Israel should be completely eliminated, by force if necessary, because they believe it to be an illegitimate occupation of historical Palestine. Of course “Free Palestine” shouldn’t be banned, but when people use this slogan (and carry huge banners with the slogan, and paint streets with the slogan, etc), and mix it with “no peace without justice” and “from the river to the sea” and “by any means necessary” 
 it can feel pretty scary and chilling to me.

And of course some students (and adults) themselves are not completely clear on what they mean by these slogans, such as “from the river to the sea” in MAmomto4’s post above.

4 Likes
1262

My grandfather came from post-WW1 Europe and always told me that we will never have peace until we realize we are all “squatters” on earth and no piece of land belongs to anyone but, to all.

3 Likes
1263

That sounds grand in theory, but in practice we’d all like to keep our private backyards.

1266

Harvard President Claudine Gay apologized for her remarks at the end of her congressional testimony, which sparked fierce national criticism and led the leadership of Harvard Hillel to say they don’t trust her to protect Jewish students at the University.

“I am sorry,” Gay said in an interview with The Crimson on Thursday. “Words matter.”

1267

Calling for Hamas terrorists to be brought to justice is not the same as calling for the elimination of either Israelis or the citizens of Gaza.

4 Likes
1268

The fear mongering about antisemitism on Harvard’s campus has been going strong for 20 years. From 2002:

“ 
students and professors have demanded that Harvard remove all Israeli investments from its endowment


‘‘We are essentially being told there can be no debate,’’ said John Assad, an assistant professor of neurobiology at Harvard medical school who signed the Harvard divestment petition. ‘‘This is the ugliest statement imaginable to paint critics as anti-Semitic.’’ 


“Where anti-Semitism and views that are profoundly anti-Israeli have traditionally been the primary preserve of poorly educated right-wing populists,‘’ (President Larry Summers) added, ‘‘profoundly anti-Israel views are increasingly finding support in progressive intellectual communities.’’ 


‘‘Labeling the petition anti-Semitic is a strategy to detract from the criticisms of Israel,’’ Professor Spelke said. ‘‘It turns the substance of a political debate into a debate of morals and supposed racism.’’ “

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/21/us/harvard-president-sees-rise-in-anti-semitism-on-campus.html

1269

I don’t disagree but can you articulate the basis for that? What standard are you using or should schools use in determining when we can say certain people should die? After all, that is what was said. So it seems reasonable to have a standard for when that is ok versus when it isn’t.

1270

So are you suggesting current concerns about antisemitism on Harvards campus are unwarranted as the term fear mongering would imply?

4 Likes
1271

From the article linked above the USC professor said:

"“Hamas are murderers,” the 72-year-old professor said to the students. “That’s all they are. Every one should be killed, and I hope they all are killed.”

The article goes on to say:
“The video, versions of which were manipulated online to remove the reference to Hamas and instead suggested that he hoped all Palestinians would be killed, prompted a swift response from the university.”

So, my personal “standard”

While not often used, the death penalty does exist in Israel, as it does in the US. As such, my opinion is that reasonable people could argue that the killing of Hamas members is justified based on the atrocities committed on Oct 7th. To me, that is much different than saying all Jews should die (or all Palestinians). I would hope most people could differentiate those two positions, including college students and college administrators.

5 Likes
1272

But it wasn’t a call for arrests, trials and justice, was it? It was a call for killing them, and the applicability of judicial penalties was irrelevant but creative of you to invoke. So again, when is it ok to suggest or justify death as a desired outcome?
Is the exception only for Hamas? Any other group? There are literally hundreds of potential candidates, and how can colleges parse through them? You may believe it is justified for Hamas; others may believe it is justified for XYZ group.

2 Likes
1273

Since much of the problem occurring on campus seems to derive from either unclear or inconsistently enforced standards, it is worthwhile to clarify this to the greatest degree possible. Colleges need to know when and how to enforce this, without exercising much personal discretion.

1274

Actually I disagree. True leadership often means following a moral code and doing what is right regardless of the advice of attorneys or the potential consequences.

In real life things often aren’t well defined, a true leader doesn’t run from taking a stance instead they embrace it as an opportunity to define who they are or what their organizations stand for.

1 Like
1275

Israel declared war. In times of war, Hamas would be considered a justified combatant/target, as Isis was in Afghanistan.

And, no I don’t think the only exception is Hamas. Here’s the list of known terrorist groups. IMO, the world would be a better/safer place without them.

3 Likes
1276

Fine with me, but I am certain many posters would have objected to the past inclusion of some groups on such lists ( Black Panthers?). And I assume you want only the US list used, not of course the lists of the UN, or our allies, or anyone else, which may include different groups? So the colleges should publish this USG list as their official standard? ( the ODNI, which produces this list, would be horrified, but that is besides the point). As is often noted, one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

Declaring war surely is not the standard. Russia declared war on the Ukraine, and I don’t think you would accept calls against Ukrainians.

1277

Being that we are in the US, talking about US colleges, yes, it’s our government’s list.

But, I responded to your question in regards to this topic - “college response to terrorism in Israel”. That’s Hamas, not any other group.

And with that, I’m out, I’m needing to make dinner.

But I appreciate the challenge to clarify my position further.

1 Like
1278

It’s a very interesting idea. Well worthy of consideration. I just can’t imagine US colleges tying themselves to a CIA list, but worth trying.

1279

Weird times when it seems like a profile in courage to call for the destruction of a group that took such pride in torturing, rapeing, kidnapping and killing non combatants that they videoed it and called home to mom and dad to brag about it.

While at the same time college presidents are reluctant to define “kill the Jews” or “gas them all” as hate speech without further context.

Morality doesn’t always require a lawyers input. The schools leaders should lead and any legal liability would have been far less than the lost donations from those benefactors who have called for greater moral clarity.

10 Likes