College response to terrorism in Israel

As an aside, Berkeley is a large campus and it’s easy to get around and avoid disruptions and protests, if the main goal is academics & research.

Not always the case when protests block entrances to buildings, which has certainly happened.

I guess you must have inadvertently missed the part about complying with time place and manner restrictions. The activities you describe obviously don’t. :roll_eyes:

However, a wide variety of “antisemitic rhetoric” may well comply with time place and manner restrictions. These would include claims that Israel is an apartheid state, rallies in support of Hamas, even claims for the elimination of Israel and many other horrific opinions similar to those mentioned in the article, provided that the expression complies with time place and manner restrictions.

Hard to imagine Jewish students would feel safe in such an environment.

Alumni are members of the MIT community.

And so are parents.

So what you are saying is that while Undergraduate Association’s proposition calling for “immediate, permanent ceasefire” and for cutting " research funding ties with the Israeli military" are driven by student activists, any efforts counter to it MUST be a right-wing conspiracy of middle-aged men (or something very much akin to that).

Well, to this I can only say that while Jews are “overrepresented” at America’s top institutions relative to their tiny share of a population, they are still a very small minority at most of them.

So the sad reality is that yes, they can not face down the mobs all by themselves.

Good thing they aren’t in it by themselves.

Academic buildings?

Yes, this has happened. Not specifically with the current protests, but has definitely happened in the past (it may have happened with the current protest as well, but I do not know as I am not on campus every day).

Aha!

Work is underway.

Good Sally!

If they comply with time, place and manner restrictions, they should be allowed to say what they want.

What other choice is there?

That’s a big if though.

Experience shows that loudmouth SJW’s aren’t easily satisfied by yelling into each other’s faces somewhere where their actual targets can easily avoid them.

What’s the alternative?

(I mean, other than not deliberately giving admissions preferences to SJWs)

If”?

I mean, srsly, how (and why) is that even an “if” when we are talking about… wait for it… an academic institution?

sry, I should have written, 'if your main goals is…

(And no, not everyone on a public campus has a goal of academics and research.)

of course it has happened, but I would submit such is rare. Unlike MIT or Columbia, where the academic buildings are up front and center, at Cal those building are up and down hills and dales. Great exercise, but not good for protesting or news/TV coverage.

My Jewish student at UCB would not object to students with these extreme views exercising their free speech on campus, if they would comply with time place and manner restrictions.

He objects to individuals with these views blocking gates and pathways or putting up other obstructions (playing loud sounds, etc), displaying posters and other materials inside of academic or residential buildings where students must pass, vandalizing buildings or objects, harassing individuals, attempting to silence others’ free speech, etc.

Many individuals with these views also feel that having an Israeli speaker on campus (for example) is extreme and hateful … the same way that I feel about rallies claiming that Israel is an apartheid state, or the other things you mentioned. It can be difficult to find common ground about what type of speech is extreme and hateful, but at least I would hope that there could be agreement on time place and manner.

Yeah that’s the problem.

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Sad way to exist on campus.

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Other students (and many parents and activists) don’t see it that way. Some students (and many of their parents) would prefer to not have to be around speech that makes them extremely uncomfortable.

Indeed, much of this thread (and other threads) have been about shutting down “antisemitic” speech on college campuses regardless of TPM restrictions, and this has included any expressions or slogans that Jewish people might find objectionable, such as “from the river to the sea,” “globalize the infatada,” or any claims that Israel is engaging in Genocide/apartheid/ethnic cleansing, comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany, claims for the destruction of Israel, celebrations of the Oct. 7 attacks, offensive chants, etc.

In short, this complaints being leveled in this thread are very much content driven.

And therein lies the problem.

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Even though a lot of the time place and manner violations have been problematic, the exchange of strongly held views has honestly contributed to a lot of intellectual and personal growth for my kid, in retrospect. He’s recently started attending all kinds of lectures on campus and we have interesting conversations every time I see him. Basically the sort of thing one hopes will happen in college, when different views come up against each other.

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I am glad your kid is making the most of the diverse opportunities that exist at UCB, despite interruptions and obstructions.

But again, your kid’s perspective isn’t necessarily indicative of the views which have been expressed here. Go back and review this thread, review the outrage about the Congressional testimony. Review the posts outraged by the use certain slogans or expressing certain messages. Much of the outrage is geared toward controlling the content of speech.

That would be a mistake.

Assuming they are talking to people who are willing to listen to them by reserving an appropriate venue in advance, they should be able to say these things.

Just as other people should be able to say what they think (let alone off-campus!) without being cancelled when they are invited to give an expert lecture on a topic unrelated to their alleged wrongthink.

Or here’s a more recent example, this one at UCB:

"As a member of the Israeli military who frequently speaks on Israel’s behalf, Ran Bar-Yoshafat is used to being heckled by anti-Israel protesters, especially on college campuses.

But he says what happened to him at the University of California, Berkeley this week — where a planned appearance was canceled because of a protest that turned violent — was on a different level.

“People don’t have to like me,” he said. “They can come and have a walkout, which is, I think, immature, but they’re allowed to do so.”

What happened at Berkeley, he said, was different. There, his talk was derailed after hundreds of pro-Palestinian protesters blocked the venue, smashed windows and, according to some accounts, physically attacked students who had come for the event. The setting for Bar-Yoshafat’s speech had been moved, but the university police decided to evacuate the space at the last minute, saying that they could not guarantee students’ safety. UC Berkeley Police are now investigating the incident."

But one good thing to come out of this is that now the long closed pandora box of free speech on campus is open.

Let’s see what’s in there, shall we.

The heckler’s veto will no longer be tolerated.

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Might I suggest that if you don’t understand what a user is trying to say, that you ask for clarification instead of trying to reword in such a way that doesn’t result in “That’s not what I said at all,” which inevitably results in extraneous back and forth.

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Note that Ran Bar-Yoshafat came back to UCB and was able to give his talk (with more security). My son attended and thought it was interesting, both in terms of the content of the talk and the experience of attending.

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Maybe the thread can undergo some growth and change, like my kid did?

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Maybe. And if so, it may be because some people will realize the hypocrisy of claiming they are concerned about free speech while simultaneously trying to get rid of only the speech with which the disagree.

Another alternative is that, while your kid’s approach may work for them, it may not work for everyone, and perhaps colleges can learn to better balance the interests free expression with the the interests of those who wish to not be contantly exposed to hurtful, hateful speech.

That would be great too.

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