Disruptive, in your face, protests on college campuses aren’t the problem.
The real problem are those complaining about them in a dedicated thread on CC to which no one is being forced to pay any attention whatsoever.
Priorities, people!
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That’s what I have been wondering. Are people joining their ranks? Are they winning hearts and minds? Or are they preaching to choir - and possibly whipping the choir up into a greater frenzy - while irritating everyone else?
I don’t know the answer. I can only say that I was initially sympathetic to the protests. But I have in recent weeks felt alienated by both the messaging and the tactics. I still support Palestinian sovereignty and self-determination, but I also support Israel’s right to exist (so I would NOT be welcome by the protestors at, say, UC Berkeley who would consider me a genocide apologist) and I am annoyed by selective enforcement of rules on campus, especially as they relate to blocking student access to campus.
So I don’t know, of course, how others feel. That is how I feel. It is possible I am not alone.
But what is the goal of getting on the news if not to spread the message and attract new adherents? I would guess the grand prize would be policy influence, but can that be achieved without building your movement? I suppose it is possible if you are loud enough to sound like you are legion. But then there’s the issue of positive vs negative coverage and reaction and, if you alienate more than you attract, being loud may not be enough to affect policy in any way.
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I think one could argue that the news coverage of calls for ceasefire on college campuses (and other places) is contributing to change in opinion and policy at the national level.
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I’m just curious if you view one or multiple political agendas being “hummed”, and whether you count yourself as contributing to said humming.
What I see are mostly posts that relate to the original topic, and some posters taking issue with other posters’ POV. It is bound to be affected by political viewpoint, because the issue is inherently political, as are the various justifications and rationalizations of responses to the issue. And, note, that everything I just wrote could apply to a left- or right-leaning view.
Let’s get back to topic, since analyzing who posts, what they post, the meaning of their posts, the motivation of their posts, etc, are most certainly off-topic
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@worriedmomucb I think that many more students are on a similar page to you than you might think. All the assumptions that each side supports the annihilation of the other is reductive and plain wrong. The students I know on both sides of the issue recognize that both Israel and Palestine have a right to self-determination.
Re. the question of whether college protests are actually accomplishing anything, I would venture to say that yes, they are a contributing factor to the US’s gradually changing position. If any of you went to college in the US in the 90s like I did, can you recall any real engagement on this issue? I think that most Americans did not have an opportunity to understand Palestinians on a human level until more recently due to lack of media coverage and the stereotyped views of Palestinians that were perpetuated by what media coverage did exist.
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Clearly something accounts for the substantial change in American public opinion since Oct. 8.
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I agree with this. What happens on college campuses is oftentimes a leading indicator of where we may be heading as a nation. It is probably too early to tell, but we may be in the early stages of a fundamental shift in how we as a nation view the Israel-Palestine conflict. Senator Schumer’s speech, which would have been unthinkable before Oct. 7, is further evidence of this.
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I am really not sure what we are allowed to discuss in this thread or not…but this has not been my student’s experience at all.
The organizations leading the movement on my student’s campus, as well as many individual protestors, seem to quite explicitly say that Israel is an illegitimate, colonizing state and that they support a single, Palestinian state…not a two state solution. Their slogans, their posters, their chants all claim that all the land is legitimately Palestinian, alone.
I do not think this would be as contentious on campus if people were merely in disagreement about the details of how to reach a two-state solution. The reason this is tearing our campuses apart is because there are people convinced that no compromise is possible.
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I think it is possible that @admmda is located in a different part of the country, or interacting with students on a different college campus.
Here in the bay area (where @worriedmomucb is also located) we see a lot of the polarization that you describe. We also see this at the high school level and even younger (there is a great deal of controversy right now about curriculum being taught in the schools).
But I think it’s also possible that there are geographic areas, or college campuses, where student and activist organizations are not as polarized.
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@Nemesis_Artemis Yes, it’s true that in much of their chanting and signage and slogans, the pro-Palestinian position can sound extreme to the point of incomprehensible. I’m talking about calm, one on one conversations with young people. My sense - and granted this is a small cross section of students I’m in touch with on both coasts - is that many are learning for the first time what Zionism is, and it strikes them as an ideology or project (or whatever word you want to use) that deserves to be questioned - as do all political systems. On a theoretical level they may believe that Zionism is not consistent with their values, but in the real world they understand that a two state solution is the best and only possibility for peace. I hear that from strongly pro-Israel students too, that they do care about and respect the Palestinian’s rights to dignity and self determination, but that they are in a war situation and still recovering from a brutal attack with hostages still being held.
I believe there is much more nuance to most people’s opinions but the din of these arguments (here and elsewhere) makes that difficult to discern. My suggestion for anyone on this thread is to find ways to talk to young people other than your own kids, ask them how and why they have arrived at their positions, and listen to their answers without talking down to them. These students are not caricatures despite what many would have us believe.
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Sure, I agree that different things are happening in different places. I want to make sure it is clear that this is not the universal experience.
And from what I have seen, what I describe is way more common among protestors.
I would accept that maybe many Palestinians and Israelis would prefer to find a way to live together…but my understanding is we are talking about US campus protests and the way colleges are responding to these.
And the general rhetoric of these campus protests is that Israel is an illegitimate colonial state.
I also think many US students, if asked, would support a two-state solution or perhaps have no opinion…but they aren’t the ones out protesting.
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I am not even just talking about just viewing the actual protests—I am talking about one-on-one conversations with people who are involved in and organizing the protests. My kid—as a very moderate person who was not even at all connected with a Jewish identity prior to all of this—was being told very clearly and explicitly that anyone who did not agree that Israel was a settler colonial state that needed to go, was complicit in genocide and not welcome. That everyone needed to attend lectures and watch documentaries with antisemitic stereotypes.
Do I believe that all students protesting have a strong understanding of what they are actually supporting? No. Shockingly some of them lack a basic grasp of facts (overheard: Jewish people did not exist until Israel was formed by the UN).
But the core group of organizers know the implications what they are saying and the rest are accepting it and repeating it. And whether it is a deeply held and understood belief or it is just being echoed, the effect on other students is the same.
I am not engaging in caricature. I am sharing the hurt of a student who is experiencing this right now and feels like a significant number of their peers hates them just for who they are.
Are most of these kids bad people? No. And as I stated elsewhere, this fact makes it even more hurtful. These are classmates my left-leaning kid would have considered likeminded allies and probably friends prior to this…so it is all the more shocking to hear these classmates on the one hand support women’s rights (and queer rights) and yet call the actions on October 7 “justified” and call for the elimination of Israel and say that anyone who does not agree is complicit in violence.
I do not have an opportunity to personally have such conversations with college students. Most adults probably do not. But I have not only heard about the conversations second hand (and I know my kid to be a reliable reporter), I have seen the screenshots of the chats. I know my kid is accurately relating their experience to me.
My kid did not go to the press. They don’t want to get anyone else in trouble. They have no other agenda than to try to learn, become a better version of themselves, and maybe make some friends and good memories.
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@Nemesis_Artemis I’m truly sorry to hear that. It sounds like a difficult and alienating experience for your child. And I can see how that dynamic can be counterproductive to nuanced conversation.
I’ve also overheard some shockingly ignorant and inexcusable rhetoric on both sides. Still, I hope that as parents we can recall some of our ignorance as young people. We’re not born knowing everything, and college is the appropriate time IMO for young people to explore their own ideas and learn from the people around them. They don’t always get it right, but knowledge and compassion are lifelong pursuits.
The flags have been excessive and the moderators need a break, so closing temporarily. Please use the free time to review the rules linked at the bottom of this page and the many moderator notes on this thread.
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