<p>a couple of comments about the alcohol issue – if parents assume that either honors dorms or hillel will equate with no alcohol usage, you can be rudely mistaken. simple fact is that there will be drinkers in just about any subgroup on campus. substance free/alcohol free housing is probably the best bet if your child really wants to be with people who are unlikely to be drinking or using drugs. (there are always those who say these dorms fill with students whose parents put them there and don’t really adhere to those rules – but i haven’t seen that at my kids’ schools – to some extent it depends on how the substance free rules are enforced.)</p>
<p>but honors kids drink – not all – but some do. hillel/chabad kids drink – not all – but some do (simchat torah and purim are especially times when you really get to see this). even kids who never drank in hs drink in college – not all – but some do. how large a portion that “some do” constitutes may be influenced by the overall culture of the school. if your kid wants to find friends who don’t drink, they will have to use their judgment no matter what group they in general surround themselves with.</p>
<p>i think there is a real value to seeking a school with a strong hillel and jewish community – but i think it an error to equate that with a likely low alcohol community.</p>
<p>Wow, this thread is really moving along. I haven’t had a chance to check it in about 24 hours!</p>
<p>Lots of great information. Since this is my first child going to college, I don’t know if I would have thought to look at the college newspaper. Now I will. As well as the flyers posted around campus, facebbook pages, etc. </p>
<p>While this thread is titled Colleges for the Jewish “B” student, in reality as I read this thread I think it’s for all Jewish parents/students. The match school for a B student, is the reach school for the C student and the safety school for the A student, in theory. I have been reading each and every post to see if I missed any schools that would work for my D1. </p>
<p>The extra information about how to check out the schools is very valuable. I am glad that I started this process early, so that now, I won’t just look at the Hillel building to see how nice it is and how many members they have, but to see what programs they put on and the level of involvement. Just more things to think about. I guess I am guilty of thinking that if it’s a large enough Jewish population, they will be active. But I won’t make that assumption any longer.</p>
<p>Concur on the morning chuckle. And I agree with what you write. I frame it a bit differently. I came from a family like yours of Eastern European origin. Both my parents have PhD’s and when I decided to leave a graduate program at Stanford after graduating magna from Princeton, my mother looked like I was letting her down and said, “But you are going to get a PhD in something aren’t you?” I did get one from Harvard and taught at Harvard for a while but wanted to leave academia. I left academia 95% (still have a minor Harvard affiliation) and my mother seemed to think I was ruining my life and hers. My father thought I should do what excited me. So, I have a sense of the Ivy or suicide bit, though it was a little different in flavor. I like to think I’ve been successful in my chosen path.</p>
<p>I want my kids to be successful and happy in life. One route, the one I took, through celebrated schools, is one way to be successful, but it is only one way. And, it is not the right way for some kids, including my daughter who is probably intellectually but not psychologically capable of the intense academic environment right now. Instead, I want her to attend a school that a) enables her to be successful there; b) enables her to enjoy her life; c) teaches her how to think in several ways and how to learn for herself; and d) provides her access to opportunities after college if she’s done her part of her deal. For her, a less pressured place beats Yale or Amherst. But, on the chance that she wants to become a doctor or a researcher in molecular biology or proteomics or whatever, I’d like her to be in a place where if she does well, she will have those opportunities. I suspect that being best in one’s class at a lesser school sometimes beats being in the 70th percentile at the hallowed halls of Too Good for You University and more than likely beats being in the 30th percentile. But my objective for them is life happiness and success rather than prestige today and so the schools I’d see my children at are very different because they need different things to move toward life success and happiness. [Her older brother needed serious intellectual challenge and is at one of the high prestige schools, but that is what he needs].</p>
<p>unbelievablem - I get what you are saying re the alcohol/partying issue and I agree it would be silly/naive to equate Hillel membership with complete sobriety - I guess I saw it more as finding one’s niche. I think all things being equal, the “hillel” kids probably drink/party less than the “frat” kids and so on. Not that everyone has to be pigeonholed into one clique and I know I am completely generalizing - but from observing hs level cliques and social dynamics - this my conclusion for now. </p>
<p>mdmomfromli - good point and I agree - I would not want the title of the thread to be exclusionary - everyone is welcome - and you are correct in that Tulane, for example, might be a reach for my son but a good match for another Jewish parent’s child. I guess I labelled the thread as being for the parents of “B” students because there are so many other threads where parents debate whether you should retake a 2300 SAT and such - that’s clearly not where I am coming from!</p>
<p>With my son having found his school, I thought my CC addiction was en route to a cure–but this thread, combining the chance to offer some advice to people and discuss Jewish issues with nice, bright people, has set me back at least 6 of the 12 steps!</p>
<p>I am not sure rural schools lead the way in alcohol abuse. I have heard that students at urban/suburban schools face a double whammy–lots of kids hit downtown clubs to drink and the rest are left with nothing to do. </p>
<p>Oddly enough, negative comments on college prow ler about schools being tough on drinking or frat parties are a good sign.</p>
<p>And yes, kudos to Asians for following the Jewish example of success through education.</p>
<p>“And yes, kudos to Asians for following the Jewish example of success through education”</p>
<p>Am I the only Jewish person who hears people saying that asians are overrepresented, are too grade focused, are too studious, etc, etc, etc and gets a case of the willies (shpilkus, in mamaloshen). </p>
<p>at least they all have countries to run to.</p>
<p>Rockvillemom - I hope you realize I wasn’t being critical in my post about the thread title. I love this thread for what it offers the Jewish parent trying to help their child find the right fit.</p>
<p>One of the reasons I have not posted on cc before, even though I have been reading for awhile is that the majority of posts are about stats, are the test scores high enough, gpa good enough, etc. To me that is not the most important match. The school has to feel right on so many levels.</p>
<p>As far as drinking/drugs/partying, my feeling is that you will have that at all schools. Yes, some more some less. I hope that all of our kids will have the right skill set to deal with the peer pressure when they head off to college. Will they make some stupid mistakes? Probably, but that is part of what college is about. I just don’t want them making life altering mistakes. Hopefully, they will chose friends who have their same values.</p>
<p>yabeyabe: the first step in true addiction is having the courage to admit that you have a problem; you’re halfway there…thanks for hanging around…!</p>
<p>ah! but you are drawing distinctions that don’t necessarily exist! at a school with a strong frat presence, that frat presence will exist within the hillel as well!! even at a school with a moderate frat presence, expect some frat presence in hillel. don’t view the hillel as an alternative to the frats. the hillel is likely to reflect whatever the overall culture at the school is going to be – because it is made up Jewish students who chose the fit of THAT college. </p>
<p>the things that will distinguish the hillel kids from the rest of the campus population is that they (1) are Jewish (though you can have non-Jews participate - I think technically Hillel membership at most, if not all, schools is open to any student if it is a recognized campus organization and (2) they have chosen as ONE aspect of their college life to engage with the Jewish organization on campus.
it is simply wrong to assume that their Judaism, or their choice to actively participate in a Jewish organization, will shield them from being representative college students.</p>
<p>Brooklyndad, I am actually glad Asians have replaced us as the magnets for criticism about being overrepresented. Now, if the internet fear mongers would just switch to claiming that Asians control the banks and US government, I will be happy.</p>
<p>I want to clarify that my kids and I were never interested in Tulane. I never thoroughly researched Tulane. I heard it has a lovely campus in a nice neighborhood. However, I heard about drinking there that is bothersome. I just think some campuses have more of a party-drinking reputation than other campuses.</p>
<p>yabeyabe - unlike graduating from hs or college - you don’t get to graduate from CC - consider it a Mitzvah to assist others in their process. :)</p>
<p>mdmomfromli - no, I didn’t take it as being critical at all. But I think you would agree that parents of “A” Jewish students are going to have a much more intense, stat-focused, hyper-competitive conversation, and that’s what I was looking to avoid. I really like the vibe on the 3.0-3.3 thread - very mellow, helpful, supportive and I was trying to create that feeling for this thread.</p>
<p>unbelievablem - I guess some of my comments on the partying issue stem from my own college experience. I attended Lafayette in the '80s. About 2000 kids and 19 frats. My parents knew absolutley nothing about how to help me research and pick a college. It was close to home, they had heard of it, it had a Hillel house, and I applied ED and that was it. Unlike my hs expereince where I had a wonderful group of friends - some Jewish some not, I could not find my group in college. There was a Hillel house - with about 8 nerdy guys living there and not much else to offer. I joined a sorority out of desperation. So, Greek life dominated my experience and I really did not enjoy my stay there. So, what I am trying to say, is that if there had been an active Hillel, with movie night, social programs, lectures, off-campus trips, etc., that would have been my group - my niche. If I had a choice on a Saturday night of a frat party or a fun Hillel function - I would have chosen the Hilllel function, had it been available. So, that’s what I am hoping to find for my son.</p>
<p>Tulane, because it offers free apps and sends out accepatances very early, gets many apps from top kids using it as a safety, rendering its average stats for accepted kids misleadingly high.<br>
Pitt also sends out very early acceptances and takes B/B+ kids</p>
<p>mdcissp - I agree with you that there are some great schools that also have quite a party rep - and Tulane is one of those that comes to mind. I’d add JMU and University of Miami as well. But that is also such a gross generalization. I’m sure it does not apply to all students - but it just garners a lot of attention. Look at what happened at JMU a few weeks back - that big festival that turned into a riot? Many of the perpetrators did not even attend James Madison. Many JMU students were not there and had no idea it had even happened. Yet, the stories in the newspaper made it seem like the entire campus was participating in a drunken revolt. Things like that grab the headlines - but they are not representative of the entire university or the entire student body.</p>
<p>some of the stuff you hear about asian americans, could have been written by a Polish or Romanian antisemite in the 1920’s, making appropriate substitions. I don’t like hearing that about anyone - I mean I should also be concerned about problems of blacks, gays, etc, but when I hear a group subject to abuse in ways that so mirror what was directed at us, it gets to me more.</p>
<p>Hillels, frats, and drinking</p>
<p>We faced that issue when we were thinking Lehigh. We were concerned about frats and drinking and hoped that the Hillel would be a sanctuary. We visited them over Pesach. The kids and staff certainly did not promise that the kids were tea totallers, but they did strongly indicate that this was a place to socialize for kids who were not part of “greek” like. Whether that was true or not, we will not know, as relative FA packages forced us to reexamine, and on reexamination, DD did not choose Lehigh.</p>
<p>yabeyabe - agree about Tulane. On Naviance - the averages are distorted because so many top stat kids are using it as a safety. That’s why I also mentioned that if you have a 1200-1250 SAT or a 28-29 ACT - I think you have a decent shot. Their admissions process - at least in the EA round - is pretty stats driven.</p>
<p>I think what everyone is getting at with regard to the drinking issue is what is loosely called the “campus culture.” And, yes, we hear things from time to time about schools that have reputations for hard partying. Generally, the schools with the larger Greek presence get that rep. But there is definitely overlap between Hillel and Greek life. Also overlap between kids who are intense academics and intense partiers…
Some of the suggestions I’ve read here are spot-on for getting a sense of what the campus culture is like (i.e. read the school newspaper, check out the Facebook).</p>
<p>Brooklyn, I agree that no group should be targeted ever. But it seems like some group always is by the hatemongers, and I no longer want it to be us.</p>
<p>Re drinking, it is everywhere. There were Jewish frats at Penn–ZBT, etc–and they competed for members like all frats did–we have wild parties with lots of drunk girls and no adults around.</p>