Colleges for the Jewish "B" student (Part 1)

Parents Forum
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<p>Rockville Mom: Biggest concern about this school is acceptance to Smith Business. If your son applies and is accepted as a freshman to Smith, great. If not, and decides he wants Smith Business, it is highly competitive. Furthermore, there is no guarantee he will get this large College Park campus or the commuter Shady Grove campus for Smith. I suggest you really read and know what your son is getting into. What if a kid does not get into Smith after starting College Park, what other majors are there?</p>

<p>I especially like the fact that our older son is accepted from day one into Engineering school.</p>

<p>Towson Business–also have to apply into the B-school after starting Towson, but it sounds easier to get into the B-school. Thought the head of Towson B-school was fantastic–very dynamic guy who really wants his students to be successful and find a job.</p>

<p>UMD CP housing is not the issue. Jewish life is strong. Nice campus. But, admission to the Smith B-school should be completely thought out.</p>

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<p>Mdcissp brings up a good point about the Smith School of Business at Maryland. I doubt that a B or B+ student would be accepted into that program as a freshman unless he/she had pretty high test scores and some serious business related ECs. I’ve heard that it is very difficult to transfer into the business program. I think that some kids who don’t get in major in economics instead.</p>

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<p>Heard that Econ is a very popular major at UMCP (maybe because it is so hard to get into Smith?). So what is a kid going to do with an Econ major? I think it is better to get a specific degree in Accounting, Actuary Science, Marketing, etc. than Econ, unless you want to pursue a PhD.</p>

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<p>I have a relative who majoed in econ at a LAC (this LAC does not have a business school). He attended law school after getting his undergrad degree. He worked as a corporate lawyer for a few years, but now works as a retail manager (might not sound great, but it is a good job).</p>

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<p>Rockvillemom, </p>

<p>If you are considering a rah-rah school, you make want to consider Indiana University for your son. It’s larger than MD, but their business school is nationally ranked. </p>

<p>I agree w/MOmjr, i think it’s difficult for a b student to get into Smith. I think a lot of B - B+ students are given Spring admission as well. It’s getting harder and harder to get into MD if your child goes to a very competitive high school in Montgomery County. At my son’s high school, his college guidance counselor told him that many kids were denied, many were offered spring, only 8 (including my son) were offered spring w/fall waitlist.
The kids offered Fall were B+ to A+ students with lots of honors/AP classes and high test scores. I think it’s always good to apply to your state flagship but UMD with Fall admission is highly competitive now. I believe UPitt and Penn State have good business schools as well.</p>

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<p>Oh I don’t think my son will be applying to UMD-CP - but I just wanted to share some info as it may appeal to others. I think he can be a Terps fan and enjoy visiting his friends there - but he has not said anything about wanting to apply. I agree completely that with his present 27 ACT score - he would at best be a spring admit. He is not really interested in majoring in business - and MD does not offer business as a minor - so that really does not work. I just feel that I have been pretty negative on Maryland in the past and am revising my viewpoint a bit. I do know many “B” kids who got spring admit this year - and I think that for some kids - it might be a viable option.</p>

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<p>On Yiddish: did you know that Google now will translate to Yiddish? For example, Here we go Steelers translates to this:
דאָ מיר גיין סטעעלערס
Haha!
Google “translate” and you can click on the languages that you want and then type in the phrase.
I also highly recommend Lansky’s book - what a delightful read! He was also the recipient of a “genius” award.
The New York Public Library also has a collection of Yiddish books - including Yizkor books for communities destroyed in the Holocaust, some of which are also translated in English and available online. My D2 used one to research our family members.
Some friends of my D1 want to start a Yiddish farm - where people can go to learn or speak Yiddish on a working farm. I think that there is a big resurgence in interest in Yiddish and colleges that discontinue it are missing the boat.</p>

<p>On rigor of courses - colleges will count the rigor of courses as a whole separate category from GPA and test scores, and it is often the most important category. I believe in taking the most rigorous course load that a student can succeed in - by succeed I mean understand the concepts and score a B or better.</p>

<p>Our high school offers APs on site - but students must pay. I think that there is a subsidy beyond the AP subsidy for free and reduced lunch students, though. Rockvillemom, what if you offer to organize a bus to the site and charge the students - it might be $2 apiece - to cover the cost with the school bus company? I’d bet that if you approached the school with this, they would make these arrangements themselves - if for no other reason, to keep parents out of their hair.</p>

<p>Keep that snow away so everyone can get to the game, spectrum! :)</p>

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<p>The UMDCP results from our HS were similar to the ones that Stayathome and RVM report. A lot of “B” and “B+” students were offered Spring admission. A lot of them are considering the the Freshman Connection program.
As RVM mentioned, there are a lot of new high-rise apartments going up right next to the campus. This will provide safer (but expensive) options for off-campus housing.</p>

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<p>I have a question regarding the ACT. D is scheduled to take it next weekend. She had been focused on the SAT and hadn’t even looked at the ACT test. She took a practice test through her SAT math tutor yesterday. She said she thought that the questions for all sections were really easy (much easier than the SAT), but she didn’t even come close to finishing any of the sections. So since she only has a week to go until the actual ACT, does anyone have any tips on improving speed for each section?</p>

<p>I told her she will do one timed section a night until the ACT. I think practice will increase the speed. As usual, my suggestion went over real well…not!</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>Levirm: We currently have blue skies and crisp temperatures in the 40’s. No worries, I believe it is under control. Go…(insert term name)</p>

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<p>mdmom, on the ACT, practice plus review of the errors and, in some sections like science, of the types of problems. The science section seems to have lots of different problems in which one interprets graphs. There may be a few archetypal problems; if one learns to recognize the problem types, one can move faster.</p>

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<p>mdmom - one of the key differences btwn the SAT and the ACT is that the ACT does not subtract points for wrong answers. So, be sure she knows that if she is running out of time at the end of a section - to still bubble in an answer for each remaining question - just do the first bubble for each one left - if she has 8 unanswered questions - she’ll probably get 2 right - and so on.</p>

<p>As you said - ACT questions are easier/more straightforward - but the timing is tight. Really the only thing she can do is practice sections over and over again to gain familiarity with the types of questions asked and to speed up her responses. I’ve been working with S2 on this since July! He is also taking it next Saturday - we’ll see.</p>

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<p>mdcissp, as an employer looking for smart kids, I have typically steered away from undergraduate business majors. I’d rather have kids who have learned to think in different ways. The single best hire I ever made was a math/econ major from UMass Amherst. My weakest hires were kids with undergraduate business degrees. My limited experience was that the kids with undergrad business degrees did not think creatively or solve problems; they were much too formulaic.</p>

<p>My nephew was an econ major and took some business classes. His experience was consistent with mine. He was surprised at how sloppy the business classes were – the kids were not really being pushed to think clearly so they learned to talk but never to grasp the ideas clearly even in economics classes offered at the business school. In case you are worried that an econ major cannot get a job, he worked for a couple of years, got a one year degree at Oxford and then got a job this fall working at a brand-name investment bank. Caveat, he is a very smart, extremely ambitious, highly disciplined kid.</p>

<p>northeastmom, I have a friend who was an undergraduate econ major at a top LAC, went to law school, practiced law, went to work for a private investment firm and now is a partner in a very successful private equity firm.</p>

<p>I think an actuarial degree is probably different than marketing or communications or other business-type degrees. One is going to get rigor there so in addition to good job prospects, others will know that the kids’ brains work. An accounting degree is in the middle – clear marketable skills and lifetime career prospects as an accountant, but I’d never hire a kid with an undergrad accounting degree unless I were hiring for a slot in a big firm’s accounting group.</p>

<p>I’m going to over-generalize here, so forgive me. I worry that kids whose academic programs don’t push them to think well will be vulnerable later on. That is, the economic environment keeps changing and what we don’t need are people who know how to do things one way and are not flexible – they haven’t learned how to learn. I suspect that there are organizations (likely large) that look for kids with undergraduate business degrees. My fear is that they want kids who follow the system and don’t think that hard. I think many people in those jobs will find them satisfying. But worse than that, I think those are the people who have the greatest difficulty reinventing themselves as times change. </p>

<p>I do think it is likely, per mdcissp’s point, that kids in general will need graduate degrees, especially if they have a liberal arts major. But, my basic assertion is that whatever the major (business or econ or classics or actuarial science), they key thing is learning how to think and not learning tools.</p>

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<p>shawbridge - your post reminds me of something I read recently about the job market. There is a disparity between the skill set of those looking for work and the requirements of the jobs that are available. For example - lots of people with construction experience looking for work - lots of technician jobs available in the medical field. </p>

<p>I think it is hard to predict what the “best” degree is now - that will serve someone well 10-15 years down the road. I happen to like the mix of liberal arts plus a business major or minor. This has worked well for DH and myself - and we are encouraging our sons to do the same. I agree with you that a business major still needs to have effective communication skills and reasoning abilities. But - particularly in this economy - I can’t get behind the notion of a student graduating with a degree in history or philosophy and 100% having to go to grad school. I think flexibility is key - as is keeping options open. The liberal arts major plus grad school model seems to me to lack both.</p>

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<p>shawbridge, then you’re missing out on gems like me. Your loss.</p>

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<p>great points, shawbridge. </p>

<p>I just want to let you all know that I won’t be around for a while. Some unexpected personal tsuris has left me too tzedrait to be a useful contributor. I’ll check in from time to time. Good luck to everyone as you traverse the coming months.</p>

<p>re: AP testing. It’s a good thing, especially for kids who then take SAT2’s in June. Even if you don’t end up using the credits in college, it’s a useful experience.</p>

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<p>Interesting post Shawbridge, so, beyond that there is almost a certain need for grad/prof school, do you have any thoughts about a philosophy major? This seems to be a major all about the qualitites you describe.</p>

<p>Also, I wonder what sort of hiring you are doing. I’m just wondering if your findings are universal or more specific to a given field. I am asking this since my S is looking at business as a major but doesn’t know much about other major or the business major itself for that matter. He chose business because he is strong in math, has really good social skills and the intangible, business appeals to him. I was hoping this was a good choice.</p>

<p>C43: So sorry to hear that it is a bad time for you. Come back anytime and I hope things work out for you quickly.</p>

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<p>Sorry to hear about the problems, C43.</p>

<p>Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that it is a bad idea to learn something about business. I do think that taking a course in accounting would be useful for nearly everyone (as painful as some might find it) as we are all going to be working for or working with organizations that have to take in money and spend it and monitor the spending, whether businesses, non-profits, governments, schools, etc. I just haven’t seen many business majors as great performers. I’m sure that some, like you Deborah T, break my stereotype. [I can think of one off the top of my head]. It’s a numbers thing. </p>

<p>spectrum2, I think philosophy is fine. I’d generally spice it up with something that helps with short-term employment (data analysis, writing, speaking, see below for further thoughts). Things I’d put into the ideal undergraduate education in terms of preparation for long-term as opposed to short-term employment prospects:</p>

<p>Statistics with an emphasis on data analysis and decision-making under uncertainty.
Some science – Americans are woefully ignorant about science and say, vote for and do stupid things as a result.
Computer programming, with emphasis on something like c++ and or Java rather than something like html. I’m looking for the kid to learn a kind of structured logic (in line with the basic theme: learning how to think).
Anything that teaches them to write.
I think neuroscience and genetics are getting very interesting and enlightening subjects like the evolution of human behavior.
I personally doubt that most undergraduate courses in marketing, sales or PR or entrepreneurship are useful – less likely to teach thinking – even though I think that becoming an entrepreneur is both important to the American economy and a potentially satisfying career and there is a lot to being good at marketing, sales or PR.
Something that teaches kids to express themselves effectively (public speaking or debate) – need not be learned in a course although it could be.
Some basic economics, if only so people can be semi-informed voters.
Probably social psychology – lots of good stuff in there about life in general.</p>

<p>spectrum2, my experience is somewhat idiosyncratic. I’ve never worked for a large company. I started my career at a university as a professor and then went to work for a small investment bank and then an investment firm, and then started a consulting firm and an investment firm. I have a background in mathematical fields but have studied and draw on lots of social science (psychology, economics, political science). I want everyone to be smart and creative and proactively solve problems (including admins); some of the positions require good speaking and presentation skills. My consulting firm’s clients include lots of large, well-known global companies so I have a fair understanding of what goes on there at somewhat senior levels, though I don’t know a lot about how they do hiring right at the entry level. I do see the backgrounds of the mid- to senior-level people we work with. We’re partnering now with one of the major strategy consulting firms on a project and I was getting an interesting tutorial from them on how they do hiring at the undergrad and MBA levels. I know a lot less generally about how small firms hire. It is possibly there that people would need immediate impact, which should advantage undergrad business majors, but I’d guess the employers would focus on people with a some real work experience or meaningful internships.</p>

<p>I think if your son studies math and anything else (economics, business, psychology, biology, neuroscience, geology, programming, …), he will be employable right out of the box. Maybe not at some large organizations like P&G but I’d guess at others like Shell. Also at investment firms, consulting firms, software firms, or possibly pharma/biotech. Even though most Americans are fairly unknowledgeable about math (at best, the stopped at calculus), they pretty much know that you have to be smart to do it. Then, if you know anything else that they can see as an interest in practical things and look like someone who has social skills, the combination makes you a good candidate for at least certain kinds of jobs. People who know how to analyze data thoughtfully and explain what they’ve learned in writing and presentations will probably not be lacking employment. [By the way, you can get there from lots of fields]. Long answer to a short question, sorry.</p>

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<p>I appreciate the insight Shawbridge has. I don’t think you are far off the mark. However, DeborahT - that was a great post! Made me smile.</p>

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<p>Then I truly have accomplished something. :-)</p>

<p>Working on taxes and FAFSA update here today. This is going to require <em>heavy doses</em> of chocolate.</p>