<p>What mini said in his first sentence. I believe all schools do “preferentially package” FA for some kids . Some schools obviously more than others.</p>
<p>curmudgeon: But what about the demonstrated financial need part. I’m sure plenty of juggling & whatnot gets done to attract candidates at schools that don’t advertise merit. Of course they’re likely to throw a bone or two or three to kids who really shine. But what if, for example, your EFC was $60,000? Or your income was $175,000? Do those kids ever get a piece of that “merit-within-need” pie? I’m not wondering about the ethics of such a practice. Just want to know what the aid cut-off really is.</p>
<p>Thank you for the lesson. It all seemed so simple when I started this process. Now I cannot wait to get home to look closely at the packages and the letters from the schools.</p>
<p>
Very true.</p>
<p>"But what if, for example, your EFC was $60,000? Or your income was $175,000? Do those kids ever get a piece of that “merit-within-need” pie?'</p>
<p>The Princeton numbers indicate that, in the latter case, they may.</p>
<p>The trick in “enrollment management” at the upper end is to offer no aid unless it is actually necessary to capture the applicant. Princeton is not going to offer an extra dime to an applicant whose family income is $300k but is thinking of taking the full ride at Vanderbilt. The reason for this is simple: what they have to offer is prestige, and (if you believe the propaganda) a greater subsidy/better educational experience to full-freight customers. If the customers would actually prefer the full-ride at Vanderbilt, it would actually lower Princeton’s prestige to try to compete on the basis of financial offers. Besides, they WANT students whose families are prepared to pay the full-freight, as their admissions data indicate.</p>
<p>So your question is what the aid cut-off really is. Good question. It is probably part of the same algorithm as the desirability cut-off, and the need for full-freight customers, and the desired level of “subsidy”.</p>
<p>So how does Curmudgeon’s kidney figure into this algorithm?</p>
<p>$60,000 K fafsa AND profile would be pushing the edges of viability, except at GWU (isn’t it about $52k now?)</p>
<p>Let’s use this example EVEN THOUGH I know nothing about GWU - Efc of $60K at GWU from Profile. But a substantial part of your Profile EFC is based on home equity. Are you sure that home equity will be treated as you expect/fear it to be? What are the chances they may cap it at $160K like some schools (even though they don’t tell you that). Maybe for their better students they take AGI and don’t add back home office, depreciation, other usually disallowed expenses etc to income . Maybe they don’t decide your barely functional professional business has a value of 1 or 2 x gross. Remember the Bucknell “we found you needy when nobody else did” story from these boards 2 years ago (I think) ? That’s how they do it. Well, that and a million other ways. ;)</p>
<p>Or maybe your Profile ($60K ) is so high because of the non-custodial virtually out of the picture daddio who won’t contribute. Fafsa ($40K) excludes him, so if they go to Fafsa like Scripps does for its scholarship winners (;)) , you qualify for a lot of aid. Don’t you? </p>
<p>The rule is, if there is ANY chance that your FA guy or gal may be drunk and find need, apply. I call it the “drunken sailor FA standard”.</p>
<p>If you get below COA, however you get there, AND it’s all grant, you are making money. </p>
<p>Edit: SS. As for the “kidney strategy”, that would be the “drunken parent” standard the colleges are all hoping for. ;)</p>
<p>Carolyn’s post that only 3% were receiving merit aid - I’d like to know how many they offered it to.>></p>
<p>Excellent question.</p>
<p>This article gives some indication: <a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/03/16/hamilton[/url]”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/03/16/hamilton</a> In it, Hamilton’s director of admissions and FA is quoted as saying “we might have offered 40 scholarships to get 10 students” Last year, Hamilton had 4189 applicants, admitted 1502. So, again, around 3% of admitted students were offered merit scholarships.</p>
<p>Being fairly new to this process, it is safe to expect that “grant” monies would be approx the same every year? I ask because one school did not give merit but a huge grant, and if it is not available after the 1st year, we would really be scrambling for our child to remain there.>></p>
<p>Cmbmom, This is actually a very good question to ask every college: “Will my need-based financial aid package change from year to year?” Remember, cost of attendance tends to go up every year, not down. So, it’s also a good idea to research cost increases over the past 4 or 5 years, and assume that costs will rise at a similar rate. Then, you want to ask how the school typically covers the increases. At some schools, grants are increased to cover increases, but at others upperclassmen tend to get increases in their loans. For $15, I’d recommend you buy a subscription to US News & World Reports Premium online edition – they show average FA packages for both freshmen AND upperclassmen. It’s just averages, but often you can get an idea of how things might change (or not) that way.</p>
<p>I never want to have the discussion that starts with “But why did you let me apply to Harvard if you knew you couldn’t afford to send me?”>></p>
<p>Absolutely agree with Frazzled. EVERY family - even those that think they can afford to pay out of pocket has to have the “paying for college” talk early in the game so surprises are minimized. </p>
<p>Use the online EFC calculators to determine what you are probably going to be expected to pay. Assume that is what you will have to pay if merit scholarships are not in the picture. Take a close look at your family budget and resources UP FRONT to determine if you can meet your EFC with some changes, student summer employment, etc. </p>
<p>Also research how the “average” FA package breaks down at each school – what type of debt do students receiving FA graduate with? While the averages are just that - averages - assume that your FA breakdown of percentage of grants-loans-work study will follow similar proportions. Then have a heart to heart with your child about what you can afford AND think is reasonable (sometimes they can be two very different things - it’s surprising how many parents tell kids that they can afford a certain amount for a certain college and then balk at say, the amount of loans offered)</p>
<p>Yes, “hidden need” may be found, but don’t expect miracles to occur. And, also don’t pin your hopes on being able to “negotiate” a significantly better deal next April. While schools are willing to consider special circumstances that aren’t reflected in the FAFSA and Profile, most “negotiations” – such as showing competing offers – don’t result in huge changes to the initial offer. </p>
<p>Each year, I hear from many students and parents heartbroken because they <em>thought</em> a miracle would occur – and often they have to turn down “dream schools” when the hoped-for miracle doesn’t happen. Forewarned is forearmed. Do your homework, talk with your child, play around with loan amounts. Be honest, but also listen to what your child has to say about things. </p>
<p>Again, merit scholarships are always a possibility at some schools, but a financial safety should be a school that you love, just like your admissions safeties – if your child absolutely wouldn’t want to attend a school, all the merit scholarships in the world won’t matter. </p>
<p>Do not apply ED if cost is going to be an issue. While your FA package from the ED school won’t be substantially different than it might be if you applied RD, you give up the valuable right to compare FA offers. If you’re considering applying to an SCEA school (single choice EA), make sure you won’t be giving up opportunities for merit money (some non SCEA schools require students to apply EA to be eligible for the best scholarships).</p>
<p>In terms of research, rely on accurate sources. Just because someone on a discussion forum says their FA package from a certain school was “great,” it doesn’t mean yours will be. By the same token, just because someone you know says they were able to negotiate a better deal with a particular school, it doesn’t mean you will be able to as well.</p>
<p>It is also important to understand the concept of financial aid leveraging. That means the <em>best</em> FA packages (i.e., ones with higher grants lower loans) typically will go to the students at the top of the admissions pool. (Yes, <em>merit</em> is built in even to FA). If anyone would like to learn more, I have some very good resources on this subject and would be happy to pass them along. PM or email me.</p>
<p>I want to stress this: There is no universal “right or wrong” choice when it comes to the financial side of things. Every family must make its own decision about what they can - and will - pay. Just because another family has made a certain choice, doesn’t mean that you and your child should make the same choice. This is NOT something that a group of strangers can advise you about - only your family can do the research for your particular situation, and make the choice for your family. </p>
<p>The only “wrong” here is failing to do the homework and have “the talk” at the start of the college planning process.</p>
<p>curmudgeon- Thank you for post # 30, especially. I am just starting to look at finaid pkges and your post was quite an eye-opener. When does your book come out? You could title it “How to Pay for College Without Selling Any Body Parts”!
carolyn- thx for the reminder about asking the colleges how or if the pkg will change from year to year.
I am “not a numbers person” so I appreciate all the hand-holding on this subject that I can get!</p>
<p>moderator- should this be moved to the Financial Aid Forum?
I was looking for it and had trouble finding it here.</p>
<p>Cur, Mini & Carolyn,
Thank you for all of the excellent information. As the parent of a senior who’s starting to get FA packages from schools, it may be too late to plan, but it sure explains a lot!</p>
<p>As usual I agree with carolyn’s points. Remember my post about the nice people who helped me? She would be one of the nicest. 
She held my hand a lot. I wasn’t always the easiest one to teach.</p>
<p>The “elites” have ideological reasons for their allegedly “merit blind” policies. Curr’s and mini’s kids got their “preferential packaging” because they happen to be exceptional kids and because the level of hypocracy encountered in the college admissions and financial aid departments of our best school are rarely encountered outside of capitol hill or UN headquarters. </p>
<p>I am certain both their kids deserved every penny they got and will be a credit to the institutions they attend and a boon to their fellow students, but what is the point of these schools claiming they are not in the merit game when they clearly are? And why do they want the student feel like a victim who needs aid rather than an exceptional student who has earned preferred treatment?</p>
<p>In both cases of mudge’s and my d., the schools DID offer merit aid, though in our cases, it was packaged within “need-based”. Again, I look at it all as merit aid. Especially since, for most students, the opportunities offered to them throughout their childhood and youth by growing up in top 3% families gives them a huge leg-up in admissions to begin with.</p>
<p>“The “elites” have ideological reasons for their allegedly “merit blind” policies.”</p>
<p>For most, it is not ideological - it is a matter of branding and “enrollment managment”. There are a few schools where aid policies ARE ideological - at my d.s school, with the highest percentage of Pell Grant students at a LAC in the country (except for Berea - where it is also “ideological”), and now at Amherst. But most are conforming to the “filling the airline seats” approach, and it works well for them. </p>
<p>“And why do they want the student feel like a victim who needs aid rather than an exceptional student who has earned preferred treatment?”</p>
<p>That’s how you create prestige - by making your product hard to get, and hence “desirable”.</p>
<p>I have one piece of advice for all you parents scanning these FA packages and all you kids planning you futures. Remember that the BA os BS you are about to pick up, even if it is from Harvard is pretty much just the entry card to the job market. If you want to live like a Haravard Don or a Wall Street banker or a corporate lawyer (all different but privileged life styles) you are going to have to shell out more bucks for graduate or professional school. Don’t totally tap out the piggy bank or saddle yourself with insurmountable loads of debt just for the prestige factor. med schools, grad schools, and especially law schools are not nearly as interested in where you went to school as how well you did and how well you score on their respective admissions tests. Prestige and a buck will get you the same cup of coffee the buck will.</p>
<p>Pick a place you can get a good education. When you leave it your education will just be beginning and the most important thing you need to learn is how to learn.</p>
<p>
I think there would be much more prestige surrounding an award that was clearly labeled as merit. In fact, I know there would be.</p>
<p>Even the private high schools around here who do not give merit aid are a good example. Every time I hear of a kid who gets aid, it is described as a scholarhsip. NOBODY freely admits that it is a needs-based award. (I’m talking about the non-parochials, where tuition exceeds $20K a year. The Catholics all give at least one full ride for the top student. Some of the boys schools give out as many as 60 academic scholarships, many of them full.) This leads to resentment & confusion when the truth is revealed.</p>
<p>And mini, as wonderful as your d is, if you found a similar student from a wealthy home, she wouldn’t be given all those perks. If you are helping newbies sort out the college $$ mess, you have to be clear that while YOU consider her awards to be all merit, they are indeed linked to need. I see it in the H.S. aid wars. Parents speak of their kid’s scholarhsip. Other parents have a light bulb go on over their heads. “Hey! We can get in on that!” But sadly they can’t. It’s based on income.</p>
<p>Well mini I come from a long line of stubborn thicknecked Norwegians. We are a hard lot to impress and more than a tad suspicious of anyone who claims to be our betters. In the upper midwest they say it is hard to tell a rich Norwgian farmer from a poor one because they both drive 1992 Buicks and buy their clothes are WalMart. We won’t pay a lot for prestige. It will just make us an object of suspicion among the neighbors. On the other hand if you have a dog that hunts…</p>