<p>Sorry, my friends in college didn’t talk like that. I am sure that there were plenty who did, even at my school. I did have a particularly benign set of roommates and friends, though.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>My son has told me stories about how easy access to sex, drugs and
alcohol is on campus. He hasn’t mentioned anything about raping
students to get it.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Duke Lacrosse case.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I never heard this.</p>
<p>But I lived at home and commuted.</p>
<p>And I spent most of my non-school time working 15-18 hours a week at my
part-time job, playing tennis or hacking in the computer lab.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Would you like me to call you a liar?</p>
<p>The reason the Duke lacrosse case was such news is because things rarely come to that point in sexual assault cases at college. That’s what makes it news. </p>
<p>The thing that I find is a big issue is how colleges should treat cases where criminal charges are levied. At what point should the college be involved? If it occurred on college property and violated specific college rules, then the college can act on it own. They really can do what they want in such situation. But is someone is murdered, it is out of their hands as the authorities will swoop in. But what to do with the accused before s/he is found guilty or not? The same with assault, sexual or otherwise, theft, etc. </p>
<p>Usually colleges will impose a leave of absence on those who are dealing with such legal issues and will make a decision as to whether the student should be permitted to return upon the end of such problems as it does with all personal leaves of absence.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>The problem with this for those falsely accused is the loss of classroom time and the expected grade damage. In the Hofstra case, it also meant loss of participation on their sports team while the police were investigating.</p>
<p>It does. But that is what happens when you are involved in travesties. The same situation occurs for those who are dealing with other personal issues, medical issues. It seems to me to be the most sensible way to go. No, it isn’t perfect. But I don’t see how ignoring such issues is a good answer either.</p>
<p>In the Duke Lacrosse case, the accused sued the University and the numbers floated around are $10 million per player. I believe that the rest of the players (that lost their season) are suing and that case is working its way through the court system.</p>
<p>I do not know what the outcome was in the Hofstra case as far as recompense for courses, grades and sports participation. I should go and take a look.</p>
<p>The Hofstra case wasn’t really a travesty. The Duke case was because so many participants did the wrong thing. The Hofstra case was one person making a false accusation and that triggering all sorts of things in the Criminal Justice system that are very hard to undo completely. It’s nice if your family can post a million for bail but most families can’t do that.</p>
<p>MomCat2 writes “When in college, you NEVER heard guys talking about how it’s so much easier to get laid if you get her drunk first?”</p>
<p>Yep, but we are talking about sexual assault not sex. The drunk woman may be tearing the clothes off the guy. I never heard any guy in college say “I’ll get her drunk and then force her to have sex with me”.</p>
<p>The Today show is a sensationalized piece based mainly on the claim by the Justice Department that 20% of women will be sexually assualted in college. Where does the Justice Department get the facts to support this claim? Don’t take it as gospel. Keep in mind that feminist groups on campus historically have trumped up claims of sexual assault by not using the legal definition for rape or sexual assault. For example, feminist groups used to, or still, define rape to include situations like “my boyfriend wanted sex but I didn’t want to do it…he whined so I had sex with him to make him happy”. The feminist groups went so far as to post random pictures of male students with the title “rapist” on them. Until I see some hard facts I don’t buy the claims.</p>
<p>Rapes definitely occur in college just as they do in society at large. But schools have addressed this issue for a long time. In some LAC students are required to sign consent forms before even initiating a kiss. How are those strict rules on behavior “turning a blind eye to sexual assault.”? </p>
<p>I’m all for trying alleged rapists in the criminal justice system rather than the school disciplinary system.</p>
<p>“Another thing that makes me uncomfortable about this is the role–at least historically–of race in rape allegations.”</p>
<p>That’s not a historical relic. Look at the cases highlighted on the Today show: white girls, black guys, and the program showed head shots of the accused, making their race evident.</p>
<p>Here is an editorial by a Dartmouth student who takes a broad-ranging view of the subject:</p>
<p>[TheDartmouth.com:</a> From Anger to Action](<a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2011/05/25/opinion/action]TheDartmouth.com:”>http://thedartmouth.com/2011/05/25/opinion/action)</p>
<p>This Becky needs a session of angry management…:)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Does this work for people who commit other crimes as well? If you and I get drunk, and I steal your car, do I get off because hey, you couldn’t consent to giving me your car, but I was too drunk to “consent” to stealing it? If we both get drunk and you beat me up, were you too drunk to “consent” to assault and battery? How about if you are very drunk, and you see that I happened to have put my purse down in a public place-- if you pick it up and walk away, were you too drunk to “consent” to be responsible? I don’t understand this notion of “consent.” You don’t “consent” to committing a crime; you commit it. </p>
<p>Being drunk is not a defense for other crimes, and it’s not a defense for rape either. *****es don’t end up in mouths, behinds and vaginas by accident. If the person whose butt, vagina or mouth it is didn’t consent, the other person committed a crime-- whether force was involved or not.</p>
<p>
I don’t find that to be self-evident at all. In the other situations you mentioned, all the drunk people stealing cars, or getting into fights, or whatever, will all be held responsible, regardless of gender. They might, however, be charged with a lesser crime if they were too drunk to form the intent to commit a particular crime. But if a boy and a girl both get drunk and vandalize the library, it’s pretty clear that they both did it. Your formulation suggests that if they get drunk and had sex, then he “did it” and she simply had it done to her. Unless she was unconscious, that is often not the way the scenario happens. They both did it. Again, you think that if two boys get drunk and have sex, they can be charged with raping each other?</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang, Hunt has said what I would say:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Frankly, a lot of this is beginning to remind me of some of the rhetoric I heard back in the 70s, when some people asserted that ALL sex between a man and a woman was “rape.”</p>
<p>“Your formulation suggests that if they get drunk and had sex, then he “did it” and she simply had it done to her. Unless she was unconscious, that is often not the way the scenario happens.”</p>
<p>If she is incapacitated to the point where a jury would find she wasn’t capable of giving consent, it is rape in at least eight states. (Proving it is what courts are for.) If both are drunk, and she says no at any point, or says stop, and he doesn’t, it is rape in all 50 states (as it would be as if neither had anything to drink). There are degrees of rape (none of these would be “aggravated rape” unless a date-rape drug was used), and if it ever got to court, it would likely be pled down to forcible sexual assault, or just sexual assault (again in varying degrees). In all cases above, the guy would be a sex offender - no different than other sex offenders registered in communities across the nation. </p>
<p>Yes, there are some who are falsely accused. I think the much greater problem is those who commit crimes and who are never accused, or cases covered up by college and university adjudication systems. These same crimes committed off-campus would get the attention they deserve - and, if there was a lack of evidence, they would be dropped, and if not, then most likely a plea bargain (often depending on the wealth/connectedness of the defendants), and a few cases would go to trial.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>There were studies on the percentages of women that accused men about rape on whether they were true or false accusations and I wouldn’t characterize the results as “much greate problem”.</p>
<p>
- fill in the blank. </p>
<p>Let me take a wild guess…Women’s Studies major? (cum laude or +)</p>
<p>I don’t think that there are many false accusations of this sort. The problem is that there is often time not sufficient proof either way, and there has to be a presumption of innocence. That puts the burden of proof on the accuser. It is not a good situation for either party when this happens and a horrible ordeal. If both parties were incapacitated by drink and drugs, it’s often impossible to reconstruct what happened and neither party may not really know either, other than one feels violated and the other feels there was consent at the time. </p>
<p>It happens too often. Someone wakes up and is naked and in bed with someone. with no memory how s/he got there or what exactly happened except in piecemeal. Could be the male as well as the female or both. If an accusation is levied and the response is anger and nastiness, things can escalate from there. </p>
<p>If charges are levied, if I were a dean of students, I would want both students involved to take a leave of absence. Not as a punishment but for healing just as they would if they were physically injured in some accident or assault. Yes, they’ll lose time from school, but sometimes that is the path of least harm. </p>
<p>My brother went to his 25th reunion a few years ago and found a picture of him making out with a young woman in a dorm room. It was clearly him, and he recognizes the other student too. Has absolutely no memory of the event at all and what happened afterwards. These situations are as old as time. There are some benefits of having single sex dorms with no visitations after a certain time. It does cut out some, though certainly not all of these things. I remember having to drag out a number of some wasted guys who had overstayed their welcomes from our all girl dorm that had 24 hour visitation and the house mother just shaking her head at what the loosening of rules had wrought.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Let’s be clear here. We are not talking about a woman who is merely drunk. We are not talking about a woman who is making bad decisions because she drank too much. We are talking about a woman who is so intoxicated she is unable to consent-- this woman can’t talk. How is such a woman to be an active participant in sex? They are not having sex. He is imposing sex on a person who is just lying there, unable to consent, unable to resist. The technical term for this is rape.</p>
<p>If, on the other hand, a woman voluntarily drinks a lot, and chooses, in her inebriated state, to have sex with someone she wouldn’t have chosen sober-- well, she shouldn’t have done that. People sometimes make decisions drunk that they regret in the morning. The key here is “decision.” The woman about to pass out, who is raped, didn’t make a decision to have sex; passing out does not constitute consent. The woman who drunkenly agrees to have sex with that dude next to her did make a decision, however bad.</p>
<p>Look, if I’m driving my car and I hit you because you are running on the road with no reflective tape on your black sweat suit and it is night? I’m still going to get charged with vehicular manslaughter. </p>
<p>If I get drunk and pass out and you are too drunk to realize I am that drunk and you have sex with me, anyway? You are going to be investigated for rape. Perhaps we need a term like manslaughter for this? Because non-consensual sex is not all right.</p>
<p>It is estimated that 80% of all people in prison in the US are in prison for crimes they committed while inebriated. Should we let them all go because they were on substances? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>Should we have a lesser charge for this drunk on drunk non-consensual sex? Maybe we should. Maybe we ought to have a crime called non-consensual sexual assault. Maybe we could even have unintentional non-consensual sexual violation? Regardless, anyone with a son or daughter had better let them know the law as it exists, today.</p>
<p>And, just because a girl is passed out? Does not mean she meant to have sexual intercourse that night. So, anyone who believes THIS drivel needs to have their head examined. Also, if a guy thinks a non-responsive girl is enjoying herself? He ought to also have his sexual IQ examined. Tell your sons: if a girl is lying there unresponsive? She’s just not that into you, and you might consider finding someone who is. Sheesh.</p>
<p>Being drunk and assaulting someone, including rape is certainly a crime. It’s proving that it is rape. Say it was so, isn’t enough. Gotta prove it. And when there are no witnesses, it’s one person’s word against another’s. </p>
<p>I am familiar with a local case here. Actually know the athlete involved. Got totally wasted. woke up with a girl in his bed, threw her out and said some harsh things, she claimed rape. The tests came out inconsclusive as to whether she was raped–no dna to support any sexual activity, and no signs of any injury. So the case was dropped. He’s still suspeneded for his season by the university The girl was not given any suspensions or other disciplinary measure.</p>