colleges with drinking culture

JHS · January 31, 2007, 5:55pm

Mini, isn’t there an issue here that you aren’t addressing?

Grinnell and Carleton really aren’t quite two peas in a pod. My subjective impression – confirmed by a quick check of the data – is that Carleton is meaningfully more “prestigious” (more selective, 50% more applications, higher yield, higher average stats). I know several kids there, and I infer that it attracts a more privileged student body than Grinnell.

My sense is that privileged kids are more likely to engage in this kind of behavior. Not only do they have the cash to support it, but it has fewer immediate economic consequences for them – loss of prestige, opportunities, etc.

Also, schools like Carleton (and Williams, Amherst, etc.) don’t believe that they are losing desirable applicants/enrollees because of their relatively lax practices. They may in fact fear that they have more to lose if they tightened up.

I’m not sure that privilege explains Penn State (although I suspect Penn State main campus kids are more privileged than those at Temple and Pitt, the next logical in-state alternatives), but I believe it has a lot to do with alcohol culture at elite-type schools.

mini · January 31, 2007, 6:10pm

Yeah. Well, the meaningful demographic is likely wealth. (I noted that one, too.) But I wouldn’t put too much stake in it - Swarthmore is closer to Grinnell in the statistics, Whitman to Williams.

School-to-school comparisons are difficult (Columbia v. Cornell? Dartmouth v. Brown? large differences in binge drinking, but obviously more than demographics account for the differences.) It is also true that while average wealth (for the entire campus) is linked with binge drinking, it is not true that prestige, selectivity, yield, etc. are.

I do think you are correct, though, at least about my alma mater. MANY students like it the way it is. But some were among the unsuspecting:

"Archived Edition: November 01, 2006

Needless destruction plagues campus

It takes a lot to make me angry. But I am really, really mad. I recently posted a blog on WSO in response to finding my bicycle, two others and the rack to which they were locked thrown down a hill by the entrance to Mission. This sparked a post on the discussion board, which generated a flurry of other posts. The consensus of this conversation? People are worried, and something must be done.

However, one post departed drastically from the others, and deeply disturbed me. It posited the argument that petty crimes are inevitable, inherent occurrences in any community. But this is by no means an ordinary community. At what point in your life are you again going to go through as rigorous an admissions process to live somewhere?

As much as Williams likes to advertise itself as a microcosm of the real world, it simply isn’t. This small campus houses a collection of some of the finest intellects, amazing artists and most talented athletes in the country, and we are all paying extremely high tuition to ensure we have the resources to succeed to the best of our abilities.

We are suspended for four years in this in-between space to read articles, do lab work, write papers and participate in activities to cultivate ourselves and reach out to others. We are also here to grow socially and to have fun, but when someone’s “fun” results in a broken window downstairs in Mission, glass bottles shattered over sidewalks, mangled bicycles at the bottom of hills, smashed vending machines, beer cans cluttering stairwells, vomit all over bathrooms and hallways, urine anonymously deposited in corners of dorm rooms, holes punched in brand-new walls, fires set in residences and beer-drenched common spaces that stay sticky for days after the party’s over, something is very, very wrong.

Is this the sort of environment you expected to be in when you first arrived on campus? It is unacceptable that the spaces for which we all pay are vandalized by a handful of individuals, and that the actions of a few have to be compensated for by the rest of us, including many who cannot afford to do so. Apathy sends this message as much as that blog post does.

If vandalism and theft are really inevitable features of a community, then I’ve got a fabulous idea. Let’s just build their costs into tuition. Forget about charging houses as the year progresses and a television sails through a window (as it did in Gladden last year) and furniture goes missing (as it has in Morgan this year). Heck, let’s get it all over with at the start of every semester. We’re paying to be in this privileged community, and to have access to what we need to achieve success here at Williams College, number one for four years in a row. We can’t be productive with broken stuff cluttering the campus or with drafts from broken windows in all the heated buildings.

There is certainly a difference between the premeditated act of hurling a bicycle rack down an incline and accidentally puking in someone else’s space after drinking too much. The impulse driving the former is certainly far worse. However, both scenarios are very upsetting: either way, you end up with a problem that takes someone’s money and/or time to fix (a broken bike or a bathroom biohazard). A deep disrespect underlies both situations. At the same time, although the two are closely related, and many a shattered windowpane is the result of drunken behavior, attacking the problem of alcohol abuse is not the same as addressing this disrespect, self-centeredness and sense of entitlement. Many students drink too much at one time here. Not everyone destroys something as a result.

I understand that this topic was central in many Record issues last spring (see “Community burned by actions of a few” 2/22/06, “Campus damages double” 3/8/06, “Campus calls for discipline” 3/15/06, and several others). While these articles were being printed, I was abroad in Paris – where, silly me, I looked forward to returning to the cleanliness of Williams as vandalized Metro stations and disgusting puddles of unidentifiable liquids on street corners became part of my daily landscape – and consequently missed the crescendo of concern around campus-wide damages. However, after reading these pieces, it appears to me that nothing has changed since last spring, and that the situation is worsening.

The Record published “House damages remain low” on March 8, 2005, which reported stable, low dorm damages for the second consecutive year. On March 8, 2006, exactly one year later, “Campus damages double” reported $15,793 of damages for the 2005-2006 school year (with ten weeks still left in the semester) – almost twice the previous year’s total costs, and an almost $3,000 increase from 2003-04’s figure.

This opinion piece is nothing new; this complaint is one of a litany, but it is also urgent. Let’s not wait until March 8th to address concretely this issue.

I regrettably haven’t the space to offer solutions here: I just want to make this problem as visible as possible to administration and student body alike, and to ensure it’s not relegated to the periphery of campus life discussions. Williams is addressing energy issues, recycling concerns and social justice; something as basic as respect for the money, time, space and belongings of your fellow Ephs cannot be ignored.

barrons · January 31, 2007, 6:10pm

Despite looking similar on paper they are very different schools. Carleton attracts more professionally focused high achievers from the midwest while Grinnell is known as more of a laidback hippy school with lots of east coasters and big city refugees. Maybe like comparing Williams and Wes.

toneranger · January 31, 2007, 6:26pm

“The difference (from what I can tell) is that Grinnell has a very proactive alcohol-related effort on campus over the past five years. They share the data regularly with the student body, focus on social marketing campaigns, hold community forums. The college pres. has been regularly engaged. In short, they show by their actions that they care”.
OK Mini: help me understand about Penn State. From what I have read, Graham Spanier has tried to tackle alcohol problems at the school for years. They do pulse surveys and share the results. Articles in the daily collegian are common. Posters around the school. Orientation sessions on the dangers of alcohol. Discussion forums with the frats. Very tough carding standards at bars. More enforcement (citations and DWI arrests keep climbing). From my seat, PSU has been VERY open about sharing the data (unlike a school like Dartmouth - where they told my friend in an admissions session that things have totally turned around and they are no longer an “animal house” scene - yeah right). In any case at PSU, the trend looks like it’s going in the wrong direction. What are they doing wrong? Or is it that an increase in high school drinkers is now contributing to increased trend at many schools?

justanothermom · January 31, 2007, 6:50pm

I really appreciate the responses. My youngest is just beginning the process and the schools she’s so far interested in are very different from those we visited with her older sister. Since campus culture will matter to her, I want to make sure that I’m not misinterpreting the data.

I thought about that, but I was puzzled by some of the numbers I’ve seen. For example, one university’s student body is 52% male/48% female with a 27% fraternity but 42% sorority membership. I didn’t know what to make of that.

I understand, but that gives me some idea. At another university, fraternity/sorority membership was 37% for each. I didn’t know how to interpret those numbers, either.

I’m really not sure how my daughter would be able to differentiate between Carleton and Grinnell without doing an overnight. Is there another way?

Thanks again.

interesteddad · January 31, 2007, 7:53pm

Penn State has a nightmare scenario on their hands. The drinking culture is so extreme, as so self-perpetuating, that is will be extremely difficult to reverse it. The steps that they would have to take (eliminating fraternities, etc.) will not be tolerated by the alumni.

Dartmouth has a pretty serious problem, too. The adminstration efforts to dilute the role of fraternities have been largely cut of at the knees by the alumni.

Dartmouth’s long-time Dean of Students just left and took the same position at Swarthmore. Reading between the lines, my sense was that he had simply had enough of dealing with the drinking. It was one of the things he talked about in his candidate forum chats with Swarthmore students.

Hanna · January 31, 2007, 8:17pm

“27% fraternity but 42% sorority membership. I didn’t know what to make of that.”

I think Vanderbilt’s numbers are in that range. It basically means that for whatever reason, women on that campus are more interested in Greek membership than men are. The percentages reflect membership patterns of students within that gender. It might mean, for example, that the sororities are doing a better job than the fraternities of recruiting against “type”; of course, it might also mean that at that campus, the social pressure to join is greater on women, perhaps because the men have more social options.

sax · January 31, 2007, 9:18pm

Interestingly Penn State claims Greek population at 4000 or 12% of University Park population

farawayplaces · January 31, 2007, 9:23pm

Justanothermom:

I think that Barrons has pretty much defined the difference between Carleton and Grinnell. My D went to Grinnell (loved it). It is more earnest, more left-leaning. More save-the-world types. Kids friendly and unassuming. Not as affluent as Carleton. Peace Corps recruitment very big. Very rigorous academics!

barrons · January 31, 2007, 10:18pm

The “nightmare” scenario has led to record apps and enrollment. Same for another midwest heavy drinking low frat school in the Big 10/11.

toneranger · January 31, 2007, 10:44pm

And what about UT - rated # 1 in a recent party poll?
Mini - is the fact that PSU surveys and measures this make it seem like they have a more extreme problem? Do the other big state Us do detailed student surveys like this every two years?
I’m not implying that the issue doesn’t exist - I just find it unusual that a university is so upfront and transparent in the face of a complex and difficult problem. Seems like some try to sweep it under the carpet (at our visit to W&L, we were told that there ARE no significant drinking issues and that the students were doing multiple submissions to the Princeton Review “party school” survey - sure).
In any case, I’m curious to see the survey numbers in 2008 (after a bulging 2006 class - the biggest in PSU history).

interesteddad · January 31, 2007, 10:49pm

Sure. Why not? What 17 year old kid wouldn’t want to go to a college where everyone gets drunk instead of studying?

That’s why I don’t really believe that college administrators are particularly serious about drinking…unless their students are dying.

mini · January 31, 2007, 11:10pm

“Mini - is the fact that PSU surveys and measures this make it seem like they have a more extreme problem? Do the other big state Us do detailed student surveys like this every two years?”

All universities that contract with the CORE survey out of Illinois or with Harvard School of Public Health do this about every two years. That’s not all, but a very large number of them. Not all of them make the data readily available to the public, though, even though it is public information.

Some of the samples are larger in size. Williams’ sample, for example, was well over half the student population.

midmo · February 1, 2007, 12:04am

This is one of the most depressing statements I’ve read in some time. In the first place, it isn’t true about my 17 year old son, or any of his friends whom I know well. I think they are somewhat unusual, but I don’t think they are complete freaks of nature.

On the one hand, I’m really happy to find posters such as yourself who care so strongly about the issue of campus alcohol abuse, but on the other hand I find it discouraging to read that you think it is perfectly natural for all college freshman to seek out that culture.

While I don’t discount the importance of administrators getting off their duffs, I don’t think external rules will be very effective if non-drinking students feel like they are only one in a million. I’d like to send my son off to college with the expectation that he will retain his good sense and judgment.

I thought I knew a little bit about campus culture since I have been “on campus” my entire adult life in one capacity or another, but what I’ve been reading on cc the past few months has really taken me aback. Is it really this hopeless?

sax · February 1, 2007, 12:38am

. The Penn State survey says 80% of the students have 2 drinks an hour or less over the weekend and 60% have 10 drinks or less over the weekend (with one category being 6-10 drinks (big range)). I read the survey and find that although most kids surveyed drink its not in insane amounts. Its also interesting that they state students perceive each other consuming more than they do.

I’m not going to nitpick the results /methodology. I just don’t think it’s as horrendous as people think. Do they have a problem… Oh yeah…but not for the majority.

interesteddad · February 1, 2007, 12:50am

Midmo,

Fair enough. I was being a little serious and a little facetious.

The serious part: there is a lot of hard-core binge drinking in high schools these days, especially in affluent suburban and private prep schools. Parents are endorsing the drinking. Crazy. The high-school binge drinkers know exactly what they are looking for in a college and, IMO, the colleges market to these kids to some degree, often with euphemisms like “work hard/play hard” as if getting drunk four nights a week and trying to keep up with rigourous academics is some kind of badge of honor.

The facetious part: I agree that there are many top students who do not drink in high school. In fact, the research shows that the percentage of non-drinkers may be increasing. IMO, colleges with lower binge drinking rates would be smart to market more effectively to these students.

One thing that we adults do a crappy job of, IMO, is helping our kids understand what college life is all about. One notion that drives me nuts is the perception that college isn’t any “fun” unless you go to a “party school”. For example, my daughter’s low binge drinking rate college is widely viewed as a “no fun” place by high school students on these boards. Nothing could be further from the truth. College students have fun. Booze (and sex and pot) is widely available at her college. There are no bans on booze in the dorms and no RAs busting a student for having a six pack in his fridge. Thursday night is pub night – the college snack bar turns into a pub, with a couple of kegs, music, and a $3 cover charge. There are free campus parties every weekend with booze. Students drink; they are college kids. So just because the culture isn’t to drink til you puke or drink until they call the ambulance or drink five nights a week doesn’t mean that college students aren’t being college students.

I think that we need to do a better job of explaining that a student can choose a low binge drinking rate school, avoid some of the unpleasantness of an Otis the Town Drunk campus culture, and still have plenty of fun in college. I certainly never expected my daughter to continue being a teetotaller in college. I actually think that, if they knew, more applicants would probably prefer that kind of campus culture. If you want to drink this Saturday night, drink. If you don’t want to drink next Saturday night, don’t. Hang out in the dorm and watch movies. There will be plenty of kids doing both. But, they are presented with a false dichotomy of “fun” or “no fun”, largely through ignorance. I also think too little attention is paid to campus culture in general.

One more point. Colleges would do themselves and their students a big favor to the end the practice of freshmen apartheid dorms. A hundred 17 year olds living in a dorm with no “grown up” 20 year olds is a sure-fire recipe for kids gone wild. Just something as simple as a few juniors or seniors saying, “ya know kid, you really don’t have to drink like they are going to stop making booze tomorrow” can make a big difference to some poor kid who doesn’t now how to act like an “adult” college student yet.

interesteddad · February 1, 2007, 12:52am

I wonder if the kids meant less than 144 drinks in a 72 hour weekend?

Seriously though, the data is a little misleading because it includes the 20% of the students who drink 0 drinks per hour when partying.

sax · February 1, 2007, 12:52am

:)…and good point on the freshman dorms.

Rileydog · February 1, 2007, 1:21am

Missed a lot of this but agree with everything you have said interesteddad - we have lived it all - the true lifestyle in freshman only dorms with no mitigating forces, the student’s wish to fulfill the marketed concept that college is supposed to be “fun” and “the best years of my life” (back at ME), and the regret that we did not really delve into the campus culture as much as we should have. As I am gearing up with son#2, my priorities are very different from what they were for son#1! I will be looking for a housemother this time around (smile). Any out there?

I know someone will tell me that my son isn’t ready for college if he needs a housemother. Heh-heh. He will be going to school with your son or daughter and so will hundreds, thousands more like him…vote for housemothers. Just a little smile.

interesteddad · February 1, 2007, 2:03am

We didn’t either. Just got lucky.

It all seems so abstract the first time around…the median SATs, the acceptance rates, the tour guides, yadda yadda.

Knowing what I know now, some things that I would pay attention to include:

a) Diversity stats. They say a lot about a college.

b) Financial aid stats. They say a lot about a college.

c) Binge drinking rates

d) Seemingly insignificant policies (like freshmen housing or pass/fail first semester) that say a lot about whether or not the college “gets it” or whether there is disconnect between the administrators and the real world challenges of being an 18 year old.

e) College financial reports and strategic plans. Goldmine of information, especially when trying to decide between several seemingly similar schools.

f) Some history of each school. What kind of place was it 50 years ago? It’s probably still the same.

colleges with drinking culture

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